7/30 Vital Conversation: Occupy Abundance - Occupy Cafe2024-03-28T20:17:25Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/7-23-vital-conversation-abundance?id=6451976%3ATopic%3A29125&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI think this needs a bit more…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-28:6451976:Comment:311362012-08-28T19:44:11.975ZAnna Harrishttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/AnnaHarris
<p>I think this needs a bit more explanation - why can't you speak of abstract femininity?</p>
<p>I think this needs a bit more explanation - why can't you speak of abstract femininity?</p> Please see my reply above re…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-17:6451976:Comment:298922012-08-17T14:59:02.881ZOccupy Cafe Stewardshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/21u3twzbb9qcp
<p>Please see my reply above re your sense of being "admonished." I appreciate that you are taking my request in what appears to be a positive light.</p>
<p>I hear your concerns again about New Age concepts. As I noted, I have my own challenges there as well, although I don't share what appears to me to be a dismissal of the value of terms like "the divine feminine" or of the insights that many have gleaned from the twelve step world.</p>
<p>Finally, I offer this piece from the late Gore…</p>
<p>Please see my reply above re your sense of being "admonished." I appreciate that you are taking my request in what appears to be a positive light.</p>
<p>I hear your concerns again about New Age concepts. As I noted, I have my own challenges there as well, although I don't share what appears to me to be a dismissal of the value of terms like "the divine feminine" or of the insights that many have gleaned from the twelve step world.</p>
<p>Finally, I offer this piece from the late Gore Vidal for your consideration: "<a href="http://thenation.s3.amazonaws.com/pdf/1569_001.pdf" target="_blank">Notes on Our Patriarchal State</a>." Brilliant, concise and as true today as it was in 1990. Maybe nothing specific here that you and I and most others here in the Cafe don't already know, but there's something powerful about a well crafted essay like this one. Perhaps in the 22 years that have elapsed since it was written, enough things have shifted so that real change might occur. If nothing else, the battle lines seem clearer to a whole lot more of us.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br/>Ben</p> Thank you, Anna. (Ben, here,…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-17:6451976:Comment:297882012-08-17T14:39:37.300ZOccupy Cafe Stewardshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/21u3twzbb9qcp
<p>Thank you, Anna. (Ben, here, wearing my OC Steward hat).</p>
<p>C.A.: in case it isn't clear, I <em>do</em> assume that your intentions are to help make the Cafe a vibrant, hospitable and transformational space. I take notice, for example (and greatly appreciate) the fact that you so often post a note of welcome to newcomers as soon as they join. Indeed, the fact that I appreciate your presence and energy here is one of the main reasons I take the time to respond to aspects of your posts…</p>
<p>Thank you, Anna. (Ben, here, wearing my OC Steward hat).</p>
<p>C.A.: in case it isn't clear, I <em>do</em> assume that your intentions are to help make the Cafe a vibrant, hospitable and transformational space. I take notice, for example (and greatly appreciate) the fact that you so often post a note of welcome to newcomers as soon as they join. Indeed, the fact that I appreciate your presence and energy here is one of the main reasons I take the time to respond to aspects of your posts that I find challenging or that I don't believe are serving our collective desire to see the Cafe evolve positively.</p>
<p>The culture we create here is essential. We can all engage with one another when our numbers are small. But if participation grows substantially, that is no longer possible and it is the culture of the space that will guide the quality of our interactions. What we do collectively to steward that culture into being can make the difference. This is what we are getting at with the first two elements of the "hurdle" (note that, in deference to you, I'm not using the word "price!") I'm we have drafted in our first iteration of the invitation:</p>
<ul>
<li><span>Listen deeply and seek to understand before we react or respond</span></li>
<li><span>Tend to relationships, paying as much attention to</span> <span>how</span> <span>we engage with others as to</span> <span>what</span> <span>it is we engage about, with a core commitment to practicing nonviolence</span></li>
</ul> Do you want to give reference…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-16:6451976:Comment:296782012-08-16T15:59:48.932ZAnna Harrishttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/AnnaHarris
<p>Do you want to give reference to this Carephysics?</p>
<p>Do you want to give reference to this Carephysics?</p> Ben, I think you need to take…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-16:6451976:Comment:298842012-08-16T15:27:21.746ZAnna Harrishttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/AnnaHarris
<p>Ben, I think you need to take this to heart yourself in your reply to CA. Anna</p>
<p>Ben, I think you need to take this to heart yourself in your reply to CA. Anna</p> C.A.: I appreciate your enthu…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-16:6451976:Comment:297622012-08-16T14:59:38.255ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>C.A.: I appreciate your enthusiasm for Wendell's work, as well as your request for some reading you/we might do to go deeper with these ideas (and your desire for deeper inquiry in general). And, believe it or not, share your concerns about being too "new agey."</p>
<p>I also want to comment on this statement by you:</p>
<blockquote><p><span>However Cafeers rely too much on links to other's thoughts, instead of doing it themselves.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span>We are seeking to foster…</span></p>
<p>C.A.: I appreciate your enthusiasm for Wendell's work, as well as your request for some reading you/we might do to go deeper with these ideas (and your desire for deeper inquiry in general). And, believe it or not, share your concerns about being too "new agey."</p>
<p>I also want to comment on this statement by you:</p>
<blockquote><p><span>However Cafeers rely too much on links to other's thoughts, instead of doing it themselves.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span>We are seeking to foster a culture in the Cafe that avoids judgmental statements like this. I shut down when I feel judged. My belief is that I cannot really know what is going on inside someone else's head. Doing that is what is referred to as "taking someones inventory" in twelve step work, the suggestion being that we ought to only be taking our OWN inventories. </span></p>
<p><span>Here's an alternative approach to consider, from our friends at <a href="http://www.groupworksdeck.org/patterns/Good_Faith_Assumptions" target="_blank">GroupWorksdeck.org</a>:</span></p>
<p><span><a href="http://www.groupworksdeck.org/patterns/Good_Faith_Assumptions" target="_blank"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1503536977?profile=original" width="300" class="align-full"/></a></span></p> Thank you Wendell! Thinking…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-15:6451976:Comment:296712012-08-15T22:17:07.322ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Thank you Wendell! Thinking a "conversation starter" slot might be in your future, if you're so inclined. Curious where, if anywhere, you see 'transpartisan" opportunities emerging out of this framing, not just progressive ones.</p>
<p>Thank you Wendell! Thinking a "conversation starter" slot might be in your future, if you're so inclined. Curious where, if anywhere, you see 'transpartisan" opportunities emerging out of this framing, not just progressive ones.</p> Thank you for your support of…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-15:6451976:Comment:296692012-08-15T17:58:01.842ZWendell Fitzgeraldhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/WendellFitzgerald
<p>Thank you for your support of further discussion of fundamental economic question. The role of taxation in the scheme of things is incredibly important in my opinion and it is an area not well understood by the left including Marxists. Also in my opinion the conservative right is very vulnerable to arguments based on tax justice in the way Henry George formulated it. For that reason I think those of us who care about moving a progressive agenda forward have failed to realize what a…</p>
<p>Thank you for your support of further discussion of fundamental economic question. The role of taxation in the scheme of things is incredibly important in my opinion and it is an area not well understood by the left including Marxists. Also in my opinion the conservative right is very vulnerable to arguments based on tax justice in the way Henry George formulated it. For that reason I think those of us who care about moving a progressive agenda forward have failed to realize what a powerful tool already fully theoretically developed with a real life rack record we have left on the table unused.</p>
<p>I think a little investigation of the Georgist analysis will reveal that it could provide the core of a truly "plausible New Age position". In my opinion the Marxist analysis comes from the right heart space but that it is too freighted with economic and historical shortcomings to be the basis of the economic transformation we need. For this reason I think Occupy will cripple itself by aligning itself with Marxism or anything to do with traditional socialism. Americans want a new perspective and one is available that covers the territory Marxism claims to cover. My opinion.</p>
<p>Yes women's studies is crucial. I suggest that the Georgist focus on sharing the earth is the most fundmental of issues having to do with the feminine and women's issues since the earth is of the feminine polarity. Treatment of the earth and women mirror each other. What better way to honor the feminine than to start with the principle that the earth belongs to all, is for the benefit of all and that no individual has the right to monopolize her for private profit. There is a way to accommodate private ownership of land for USE with the common right to ownership of the value all of us give to land by our very existence and by all the things we do as individuals in community. In the debate between Marxism and Georgism the focus is shifted off of capital all of which is very masculine in polarity onto our relationship with the earth from which all capital comes and will always come from.</p>
<p>A comment on the current political situation where we see that Romney has selected Paul Ryan to run as his running mate. Ryan is a died in the wool devotee of Ayn Rand and one of the cardinal principles of that grotesque monstrosity of a philosophy (my opinion) is that there is no such thing as community. The implication of this is that the only thing that exists worthy of concern is the individual and his property rights and al the rest is pure socialism/communism/communitarianism. The absurdity of this is obvious but these folks have convinced themselves of it.</p>
<p>Also just to "straighten out" some confusion about terms: land is not capital. Land is its own separate and distinct factor of production. The classical economists treated it this way and Marxists and neo-liberal thinking, both left and right, ignores that distinction. Failure to make the distinction is a fatal flaw in economic analyses of both left and right. Always willing to discuss these and any other issues arising from the Georgist paradigm.</p> What do you see, Sea, when yo…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-14:6451976:Comment:299162012-08-14T06:18:44.403ZAnna Harrishttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/AnnaHarris
<p>What do you see, Sea, when you look at Patriarchy?</p>
<p>What do you see, Sea, when you look at Patriarchy?</p> I think Anna's onto something…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-08-12:6451976:Comment:298352012-08-12T13:50:35.894ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>I think Anna's onto something here! From my perspective, Sea, when you say things like "the Cafe should ____ " or "the Cafe is not ______ ," I think about how a) I want the Cafe to be a collaboratively "owned" enterprise in which what it does is determined by the places where the collective desires of it's participants intersect and b) that the possibility we as hosts are inviting everyone into has not been clearly articulated so it is hard right now for a) to happen (i.e. people aren't…</p>
<p>I think Anna's onto something here! From my perspective, Sea, when you say things like "the Cafe should ____ " or "the Cafe is not ______ ," I think about how a) I want the Cafe to be a collaboratively "owned" enterprise in which what it does is determined by the places where the collective desires of it's participants intersect and b) that the possibility we as hosts are inviting everyone into has not been clearly articulated so it is hard right now for a) to happen (i.e. people aren't quite sure what we are convening this space for).</p>
<p>Beginning to address the latter will be the subject of our Cafe Call tomorrow (forum post coming shortly!). We will introduce the idea of <em>"invitation as a way of being,"</em> as distinct from <em>mandate or persuasion</em>. That distinction feels like it might be quite relevant in the case of your experience here as well. If you are wishing for a mandate from me, or are looking to persuade me (and others) to do what you want to do, my interest drops to the floor. </p>
<p>If, on the other had, you are thinking together with others about the possibilities a group of us might find compelling and inspiring, and then about how you might extend <em>personal</em> invitations to others to explore such a possibility together, you are going to have my full attention.</p>
<p>You have offered many ideas, and I truly appreciate that initiative and energy. If people don't respond the way you wish, instead of seeking to persuade them to pay attention or to agree with your perspective, <em>what might you also do?</em></p>