A New Democracy - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T11:28:01Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/a-new-democracy?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A19434&feed=yes&xn_auth=noFor your information John: I…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-02:6451976:Comment:197632012-01-02T19:53:20.447ZPawel Klewinhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/PawelKlewin
<p>For your information John: I am an outsider (from Poland), observing the Movement (in wider, Paul Hawken's sense) since four years.</p>
<p>I think it is a great mistake to say "thats fine". My experience (David knows it is rather extensive) tells me Ben's question is essential to understand how the potential of Occupy is being dissipated.</p>
<p>The question touches the issue of integrity (the system is an integral whole) and organize millions is an utopia unless systemic meaning of…</p>
<p>For your information John: I am an outsider (from Poland), observing the Movement (in wider, Paul Hawken's sense) since four years.</p>
<p>I think it is a great mistake to say "thats fine". My experience (David knows it is rather extensive) tells me Ben's question is essential to understand how the potential of Occupy is being dissipated.</p>
<p>The question touches the issue of integrity (the system is an integral whole) and organize millions is an utopia unless systemic meaning of integrity is shared, and obstacles on the way to it are recognized.</p>
<p>Anticipating David's answer: internal spiritual experience can be a subject of integration - only the inertia of consciousness rise makes us think the body and the soul/spirit belong to different worlds/systems..</p> David, thats fine. I hope you…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-02:6451976:Comment:199302012-01-02T14:37:25.564ZJohn Mulkinshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JohnMulkins
<p>David, thats fine. I hope your discussions continue to be productive. I'll carry on mine with others.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p>David, thats fine. I hope your discussions continue to be productive. I'll carry on mine with others.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p> You knew my assessment of you…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-02:6451976:Comment:198472012-01-02T14:02:15.302ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<div><p>You knew <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/profiles/blogs/goals-porcess-togetherness" target="_blank">my assessment of your plans</a>, but followed signs of life to continue recruiting. That's harder to excuse than the fact that you, like me, didn't review all the posts in the thread. I'm in it strictly because of Ben's recent question.</p>
<p>Your thinking is done and your search is for bodies. I'm not with you.</p>
</div>
<div><p>You knew <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/profiles/blogs/goals-porcess-togetherness" target="_blank">my assessment of your plans</a>, but followed signs of life to continue recruiting. That's harder to excuse than the fact that you, like me, didn't review all the posts in the thread. I'm in it strictly because of Ben's recent question.</p>
<p>Your thinking is done and your search is for bodies. I'm not with you.</p>
</div> David, I read your post and h…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-02:6451976:Comment:195942012-01-02T06:27:47.932ZJohn Mulkinshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JohnMulkins
<p>David, I read your post and have some thoughts which may or may not be relevant. I have not had time to review all the posts so if I am missing the point please excuse me. When we envision a very large movement, I think a few things are given. There will have to be a "basic" goal, one which aligns the entire movement and garners support from a majority of the population. It seems to me the most universal goal would be <em>establishing a truly representational democracy</em>, even though…</p>
<p>David, I read your post and have some thoughts which may or may not be relevant. I have not had time to review all the posts so if I am missing the point please excuse me. When we envision a very large movement, I think a few things are given. There will have to be a "basic" goal, one which aligns the entire movement and garners support from a majority of the population. It seems to me the most universal goal would be <em>establishing a truly representational democracy</em>, even though that goal will have it's detractors as well. It's hard to argue against real democracy.<br/><br/>Strategy evolves out of the constructive response to the systemic failures which have been engineered into our system of governance, ie: undoing the matrix. When explained in simplistic terms, this becomes fairly easy to grasp. Corporations have co-opted government, manipulated our media, taken over our elections, and as a result, we get policy that does not mirror the will of the people. Pretty simple message. There are several concrete steps which will create a more representational democracy which are all pretty easy to grasp.<br/><br/> I continue to believe that significant change can be won by a few million highly organized citizens. One million in D.C. for 3 weeks, supported by 2 or 3 million peoples around the country. That will require focus and a lot of networking, but given it is essentially <em>our best if not only "tool"</em>, I hope we will all take up the task and get busy now. If we can all reach out to a few people every day, we will have enough support to effect meaningful change come this summer, I think. :-)<br/><br/><a href="http://peoplescongress.org" target="_blank">http://peoplescongress.org</a></p>
<p></p>
<p></p> I referred to the fact that a…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-02:6451976:Comment:197282012-01-02T03:43:38.739ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<p>I referred to the fact that a system has components that come or are brought into functional relationships. Some are pre-existing, some are finely tailored and some are improvised.</p>
<p>Religion is an enormous -- probably the ultimate -- issue, but I didn't mean to go there. There is, indeed, much likelihood of alienating religious folks, sooner or later.</p>
<p>I referred to the fact that a system has components that come or are brought into functional relationships. Some are pre-existing, some are finely tailored and some are improvised.</p>
<p>Religion is an enormous -- probably the ultimate -- issue, but I didn't mean to go there. There is, indeed, much likelihood of alienating religious folks, sooner or later.</p> Hi David,
I agree that the qu…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-01:6451976:Comment:199172012-01-01T22:07:08.302ZNDThttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/NDT
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p>I agree that the question is problematic. By "assembled", are you referring to the conditions which brought the system into being? If so, we are looking at issues of creation or formation and their obvious theological and religious implications. Personally I think that religion is a key issue, but I'm aware of the likelihood of alienating people who hold to particular religious doctrines.</p>
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p>I agree that the question is problematic. By "assembled", are you referring to the conditions which brought the system into being? If so, we are looking at issues of creation or formation and their obvious theological and religious implications. Personally I think that religion is a key issue, but I'm aware of the likelihood of alienating people who hold to particular religious doctrines.</p> "I guess the key question is…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-01:6451976:Comment:195852012-01-01T21:38:04.699ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<p>"<span>I guess the key question is whether or not we can align around the nature of the systemic changes we stand for even if we disagree about the historical antecedents of our current plight.</span>"</p>
<p>We could align if we happened to stand for changes that actually affect the system(s) with the controversial history. As a veteran of another discussion on this site that stalled after revealing such disagreement, I say we would have to be lucky in order to achieve alignment. A…</p>
<p>"<span>I guess the key question is whether or not we can align around the nature of the systemic changes we stand for even if we disagree about the historical antecedents of our current plight.</span>"</p>
<p>We could align if we happened to stand for changes that actually affect the system(s) with the controversial history. As a veteran of another discussion on this site that stalled after revealing such disagreement, I say we would have to be lucky in order to achieve alignment. A complete understanding of a system is hard to come by if one doesn't know how it was <em>assembled</em> and how extensive it is.</p>
<p>With so many involved (and not even enough, yet), I won't hold my breath.</p> Hi Ben,
There is a substantia…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-01:6451976:Comment:198222012-01-01T20:27:58.843ZNDThttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/NDT
<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>There is a substantial body of evidence in support of the central ideas. The subject can be quite divisive, which is why I'm not addressing those ideas directly. I agree that there is no point in bringing up issues which do not shed any light on the underlying reasons for the problem or on a reasonable course of action.</p>
<p>In response to your question, I would suggest that a model could be used based on human cognitive physiology. Inside a human skull the brain exists…</p>
<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>There is a substantial body of evidence in support of the central ideas. The subject can be quite divisive, which is why I'm not addressing those ideas directly. I agree that there is no point in bringing up issues which do not shed any light on the underlying reasons for the problem or on a reasonable course of action.</p>
<p>In response to your question, I would suggest that a model could be used based on human cognitive physiology. Inside a human skull the brain exists within three distinct structures, and it can be said that we each have three brains, with the outermost one surrounding the inner two, and the innermost one located at the top of the spinal column. Each of these three brains has a specific function, and each has an independent set of memories. The innermost brain is called the reptilian brain and governs survival traits. The middle brain is called the limbic system and governs social traits as emotional responses. The outer brain is called the neocortex and governs individual traits like reasoning and language. </p>
<p>The relevance of all of this is that the systemic changes available for consideration by Occupy can be described as a transition in behaviour from that which is governed primarily by the reptilian brain to behaviour in which the triune brain operates in synergy. My preferred description of the problem as a conflict of law can be mapped directly into the physiological model by describing will-to-power as a social pattern in which the reptilian brain is dominant, and the expression of natural law as a social pattern in which synergy of the three parts exists.</p>
<p>This leads directly to the issue of organisational structure within Occupy or society in general, with emphasis on removing or minimising heirarchical structures in favour of structures where power resides with those who are competent in all aspects of human behaviour.</p> @NDT: are you saying that the…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-01:6451976:Comment:198122012-01-01T17:46:59.047ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
@NDT: are you saying that the ideas in "the conspiracy theory heartland" are correct, or that it's hard to stay out of them once the critique reaches a certain degree of depth and vigor? It seems to me that those who are drawn to Occupy fall on both sides of the line here, so learning to play together without getting stuck in a debate about whether or not the CIA killed JFK, the Twin Towers were felled by the US government, etc., would be very useful. I don't think we have time to devote to…
@NDT: are you saying that the ideas in "the conspiracy theory heartland" are correct, or that it's hard to stay out of them once the critique reaches a certain degree of depth and vigor? It seems to me that those who are drawn to Occupy fall on both sides of the line here, so learning to play together without getting stuck in a debate about whether or not the CIA killed JFK, the Twin Towers were felled by the US government, etc., would be very useful. I don't think we have time to devote to those internal battles. Also, it becomes hard to trust and respect one another when these issues come to the fore.<br />
<br />
I guess the key question is whether or not we can align around the nature of the systemic changes we stand for even if we disagree about the historical antecedents of our current plight. well said gisele and very tru…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-01:6451976:Comment:198102012-01-01T13:22:19.016ZLindsay Newland Bowkerhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/LindsayNewlandBowker
<p>well said gisele and very true ( and by the way..Happy New Year..hope 2012 is very kind to you)</p>
<p>well said gisele and very true ( and by the way..Happy New Year..hope 2012 is very kind to you)</p>