Sacred Economics and the Stories We Want to Tell - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T05:47:00Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/charles-eisenstein-s-sacred-economics?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A32741&feed=yes&xn_auth=noRereading your post this morn…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-04:6451976:Comment:332342012-10-04T14:59:29.627ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Rereading your post this morning, Gary... Appreciating your eloquence as always, my friend. The closing sentence seems to capture a theme running through this thread as well as our Cafe conversation overall:</p>
<blockquote><p><span> This is a process of learning how to "be there" while "getting there," how to put attention on the inner process while we build the outer structures, being both the chicken </span><em>and</em><span> the egg.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span>I also quoted from…</span></p>
<p>Rereading your post this morning, Gary... Appreciating your eloquence as always, my friend. The closing sentence seems to capture a theme running through this thread as well as our Cafe conversation overall:</p>
<blockquote><p><span> This is a process of learning how to "be there" while "getting there," how to put attention on the inner process while we build the outer structures, being both the chicken </span><em>and</em><span> the egg.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span>I also quoted from this post over on <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/indigenous-wisdom-healing-the-rift-10-8-vital-conversation" target="_blank">the discussion for our new Vital Conversation on Indigenous Wisdom</a>.</span></p>
<p><span>I do have one "quibble," regarding your interpretation of the butterfly metamorphosis metaphor. In fact, the imaginal cells start appearing shortly after the caterpillar enters the cocoon, but well before it "collapses." Its still-functioning immune system attacks the imaginal cells as foreign invaders (their DNA is different from the capterpillar's!). So the collapse and the emergence of something new are contemporaneous, not sequential. The caterpillar/butterfly has mastered "being here and getting there."</span></p>
<p><span>Bruce Lipton suggests we are in "late caterpillar stage" already:</span></p>
<p><span><iframe width="475" height="266" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gcacx_i6MIE?feature=player_embedded&wmode=opaque" frameborder="0"></iframe>
</span></p> Sea, the universal set is jus…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-29:6451976:Comment:326782012-09-29T12:04:46.822ZRichard Waddellhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RichardWaddell
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font size="4">Sea, the universal set is just the collection of all objects permitted within your mathematical system, however you choose to define it. If your inquiry concerns integers only, then it makes sense to define the universal set as being the infinite set of all integers.</font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font size="4">I don't understand how defining a set can be tautological. Suppose I define set A to be all…</font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font size="4">Sea, the universal set is just the collection of all objects permitted within your mathematical system, however you choose to define it. If your inquiry concerns integers only, then it makes sense to define the universal set as being the infinite set of all integers.</font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font size="4">I don't understand how defining a set can be tautological. Suppose I define set A to be all the US citizens who immigrated from China, and the set B to be all female citizens. Such definitions allow me, for example, to define a 3<sup>rd</sup> set C as the intersection of A and B. Conducting an experiment to determine the composition of a defined set, as I think you implied, makes no sense.</font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font size="4">If you were conducting a statistical study of the set C, the fact that all members of the set are female would be part of your a priori knowledge. I think you are correct about a priori synthetic knowledge, but -- for most analyses -- I don't think it makes much difference whether you make a distinction between the 2 kinds of knowledge.</font></p> I see human nature mostly in…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-29:6451976:Comment:325762012-09-29T02:40:19.429ZRichard Waddellhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RichardWaddell
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">I see human nature mostly in the context of evolution as described by E.O. Wilson and Howard Bloom who wrote “The Lucifer Principle.” We are from the tribes (gene collections) that survived. We all carry masculine and feminine characteristics within us because the mix helped us survive.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Shlain's idea you mention: "rational" discourse is somehow different than direct perception. Is very real to…</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">I see human nature mostly in the context of evolution as described by E.O. Wilson and Howard Bloom who wrote “The Lucifer Principle.” We are from the tribes (gene collections) that survived. We all carry masculine and feminine characteristics within us because the mix helped us survive.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Shlain's idea you mention: "rational" discourse is somehow different than direct perception. Is very real to me because I experience it in many ways, and I imagine almost everyone does so. For example, several years ago, I had a desire to know how to identify wild flowers I did what I usually do when I want to know about something, I got some books on the subject. I learned logically to identify many plants by number of petals, how the leaves are arranged on the stalk, leaf patterns, etc. My left brain then used rules and facts to identify plants.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">After I'd been studying flowers for some time, I took my mother to visit her mother's grave at an old country cemetery. As we were leaving, I looked across the gravel road, and saw a familiar plant. I recognized it as polk salat (as in Polk Salat Annie). My parents had taken my sister and I to gather the plant when we were children. That identification came from direct knowing. I still can't tell you how the leaves are arranged, etc.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Betty Edwards in “Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain” has a drawing exercise that causes one to experience a shift from left-brain to right-brain thinking.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">The 2 modes of thinking are reflected in artificial intelligence. In a logic based system, rules are stored in a database in logical forms such as “If A and B then C,” for example. Facts are also stored. These take forms such as: A is true and B is not true. The program (inference engine) generates a conclusion, if possible, from the rules and facts.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">The other most common forms of AI are “artificial neural networks” that bear some slight resemblance to our brain structures. These networks must be trained to draw correct conclusions.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">I've started reading Marx, and have read the first 2 chapters. I suspect the first 2 chapters could have been reduced to about 3 pages of equations. He had a tendency to be-labor his points.</p> Friday, 28 Sept. sure, Ben, l…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-28:6451976:Comment:328322012-09-28T19:25:23.640ZHarvey W. Austin, MDhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/HarveyWAustinMD
Friday, 28 Sept. sure, Ben, let's go for it. Will 'glean' later
Friday, 28 Sept. sure, Ben, let's go for it. Will 'glean' later Richard, we may be talking pa…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-28:6451976:Comment:327722012-09-28T14:05:26.262ZJim Prueshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JimPrues
<p>Richard, we may be talking past each other. I recognize that, say, the deep relationship between the circumference and diameter of a circle is not understood by the simple 'off/on' nature of the binary system. For me, seeing life and the world from a Taoist perspective means seeing this 'off/on/ interplay everywhere. There is no teacher without a student. There is no foreground without background. </p>
<p>On this planet, where sentience takes the form of carbon/water-based biological…</p>
<p>Richard, we may be talking past each other. I recognize that, say, the deep relationship between the circumference and diameter of a circle is not understood by the simple 'off/on' nature of the binary system. For me, seeing life and the world from a Taoist perspective means seeing this 'off/on/ interplay everywhere. There is no teacher without a student. There is no foreground without background. </p>
<p>On this planet, where sentience takes the form of carbon/water-based biological creatures, we base our understanding of reality on science, which is based on numbers, as is geometry and fractals. We have, in this holographic reality that we share, a reliance on math so that we can find a commonality, just as we share an understanding of words to make sense of this experience we're sharing.</p> Jim, the world of numbers is…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-27:6451976:Comment:328212012-09-27T21:46:45.421ZRichard Waddellhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RichardWaddell
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Jim, the world of numbers is more rich than you are imagining. Some number cannot be expressed as a ratio of 2 integers. These are the irrational numbers, of which pi (the ratio between the cricumfrence of a circle and the diameter) is a member. Then there are imaginary numbers such as the square root of -3, for example, which is usually written as 3i, where i represents the square root of -1. Some numbers are complex, for example 5.7+333.7i, that is, this complex…</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Jim, the world of numbers is more rich than you are imagining. Some number cannot be expressed as a ratio of 2 integers. These are the irrational numbers, of which pi (the ratio between the cricumfrence of a circle and the diameter) is a member. Then there are imaginary numbers such as the square root of -3, for example, which is usually written as 3i, where i represents the square root of -1. Some numbers are complex, for example 5.7+333.7i, that is, this complex number has a real and imaginary part. There are probably others I'm not aware of.</p>
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Yes, I shall be happy to do…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-27:6451976:Comment:326362012-09-27T21:07:56.678ZHarvey W. Austin, MDhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/HarveyWAustinMD
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, I shall be happy to do so. </p>
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<p>Once again.... I consider this the basic unit of exchange between two sentient beings: </p>
<p><i>“I love you. I give this to you. “ </i></p>
<p><i>“Thank you. I love you. And I give this to you”.</i></p>
<p><i>“Thank you.”</i></p>
<p>In any interchange when its context is love and connection, then contribution to the other is automatic. The result is satisfaction and an enhancement of the relationship. It could be called a…</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, I shall be happy to do so. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Once again.... I consider this the basic unit of exchange between two sentient beings: </p>
<p><i>“I love you. I give this to you. “ </i></p>
<p><i>“Thank you. I love you. And I give this to you”.</i></p>
<p><i>“Thank you.”</i></p>
<p>In any interchange when its context is love and connection, then contribution to the other is automatic. The result is satisfaction and an enhancement of the relationship. It could be called a win/win interchange.</p>
<p>By contrast, where each seeks an advantage over the other, the very context of that interchange is distrust and disconnection. Our daily commercial interchange has devolved to this status. In my view money is not the issue, for money is merely a convenient intermediate that tends to represent the culturally ‘agreed-upon-general-value’ of each of the interchange units. In a win/win interchange, that ‘general value’ has a secondary significance. By contrast, in a win/lose (zero sum game) interchange, that ‘general value’ becomes highly specific, even contested. </p>
<p>Money, per se, is neutral. It is the stories we have made up about it – the global stories, the cultural stories, our individual stories - that have shifted money from neutral to ‘loaded’. So let us not look to money as the culprit, but look into the mirror instead. </p>
<p>As Pogo might have said, “We have met the money crazies and it is us.” </p> No need to wait, Jerry! This…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-27:6451976:Comment:327412012-09-27T20:02:26.598ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>No need to wait, Jerry! This is a group effort!</p>
<p>I will start by thanking <em>YOU</em>, though, for showing up with such enthusiasm, reading the whole book in a few days, and offering a perspective that is a bit different from the ones we most often hear, at least in some respects. I am touched that, being new to our community and coming from well outside the "occupy consciousness," you have stepped in and stepped up as one of us. This feels very valuable to me.</p>
<p>I was both…</p>
<p>No need to wait, Jerry! This is a group effort!</p>
<p>I will start by thanking <em>YOU</em>, though, for showing up with such enthusiasm, reading the whole book in a few days, and offering a perspective that is a bit different from the ones we most often hear, at least in some respects. I am touched that, being new to our community and coming from well outside the "occupy consciousness," you have stepped in and stepped up as one of us. This feels very valuable to me.</p>
<p>I was both moved and challenged by <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/charles-eisenstein-s-sacred-economics?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A32619" target="_blank">this post</a> of yours.* I was moved by parts like this: "<span>Let me move in the fullness of my being doing something that matters." And was challenged by this: "<span>To the enemies of personal freedom I want to be the threat of death.</span>"</span></p>
<p>More in a bit...</p>
<div><em>*Note: to create a hyperlink to a particular post as I did above, click on the little chain "link" icon to the left of the words "reply by" at the beginning of the post you want to link to and then copy the url of the window that opens up.</em></div> Last night I was considering…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-27:6451976:Comment:328202012-09-27T19:46:40.606ZJim Prueshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JimPrues
<p>Last night I was considering how the only two 'real' numbers are zero and one - the binary system of math. All other numbers, physics, and science are based on the infinite combinations and recombinations of these two numbers. Our entire digital realm is based on zero and one - two numbers with opposite energy and meanings. And zero can only be used to define absolute nothingness, or used to hold space. One is always generative. How very Tao.</p>
<p>Last night I was considering how the only two 'real' numbers are zero and one - the binary system of math. All other numbers, physics, and science are based on the infinite combinations and recombinations of these two numbers. Our entire digital realm is based on zero and one - two numbers with opposite energy and meanings. And zero can only be used to define absolute nothingness, or used to hold space. One is always generative. How very Tao.</p> What a rich and interesting t…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-09-27:6451976:Comment:328192012-09-27T19:38:55.104ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p><strong>What a rich and interesting thread this is so far!</strong> I began this as an experiment in what might be possible in an "asynchronous" (i.e. online text-based) conversation. I believed that setting an intention for something more than the typical forum thread might take us somewhere new. Again, here were the general distinctions I hoped we might bring to this conversation in order to create a quality of "aliveness:"</p>
<ol>
<li>Explore our willingness to collectively pursue a…</li>
</ol>
<p><strong>What a rich and interesting thread this is so far!</strong> I began this as an experiment in what might be possible in an "asynchronous" (i.e. online text-based) conversation. I believed that setting an intention for something more than the typical forum thread might take us somewhere new. Again, here were the general distinctions I hoped we might bring to this conversation in order to create a quality of "aliveness:"</p>
<ol>
<li>Explore our willingness to collectively pursue a particular intention for a conversation</li>
<li>Invite all participants to think of themselves as "hosts"</li>
<li>Invite the possibility that connecting emotionally, showing compassion and being in relationship can be just as much a part of what we engage in here as the intellectual exchange of ideas</li>
</ol>
<p><strong>So, are you willing to continue the experiment?</strong> Can we move this discussion from the realm of "interesting" to the realm of "powerful?" As "host" of this conversation, I suggest we pause for some <strong><em>harvesting and synthesis</em></strong> to get a clearer picture of what might be emerging here, and also to <strong><em>acknowledge any "gifts"</em></strong> we have received thus far. Whether you have participated to date or not, I invite you to join us and help to bring out the collective wisdom of the whole. </p>
<p><strong>Read through all the posts and share your list</strong> of <em>things that struck, touched, moved, challenged or surprised</em> you in the comments so far. Is there someone you would like to thank for their contribution? What have you learned? What question would you like to ask now? What is missing from the picture so far?</p>
<p>I'll offer my own list shortly...</p>
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