Commitment: Our 10/1 Vital Conversation - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T08:13:44Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/commitment-our-10-1-vital-conversation?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A32543&feed=yes&xn_auth=noC.A,
Let's back up and step…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-18:6451976:Comment:345652012-11-18T20:01:14.811ZMushinhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/PatricRoberts
<p>C.A, </p>
<p>Let's back up and step away from current breakdowns in modern civilization first. It's only 10,000 years old, it's in its infancy being born, and suffering under autopoietic observe errors in cultural matrixes in the units of our humanity.</p>
<p>All of us are indigenous people with a conservative biological evolutionary history of 3 million years as homo sapiens sapiens. Our molecular dynamic central nervous system is reptilian, mammalian and finally a neo cortex that…</p>
<p>C.A, </p>
<p>Let's back up and step away from current breakdowns in modern civilization first. It's only 10,000 years old, it's in its infancy being born, and suffering under autopoietic observe errors in cultural matrixes in the units of our humanity.</p>
<p>All of us are indigenous people with a conservative biological evolutionary history of 3 million years as homo sapiens sapiens. Our molecular dynamic central nervous system is reptilian, mammalian and finally a neo cortex that developed modern man. 3 million years ago the brain was 550cc compared to 1500cc today (?fact check I am no a scientist and think I am close). Three million years ago our ancestors did the same things we do today:</p>
<ul>
<li>Sexually we became frontal and started to look into one another's eyes and observe face rather that entering intercourse from the rear.</li>
<li>The human hand is a caressing hand that molds itself to texture, feel and sensitivity</li>
<li>Women delivered children and men participated in child rearing as a family unit in partnership</li>
<li>Gathering of food and hunting, today we go to super markets</li>
<li>Men served to protect and defend the family units safety, to day we have world wars</li>
</ul>
<p>This TED talk introduces you to a distant relative 25 million years old and economics observer happening in modernity. </p>
<p><b>“Laurie Santos: A monkey economy as irrational as ours”</b></p>
<p><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/laurie_santos.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2010-07-30&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email">http://www.ted.com/talks/laurie_santos.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2010-07-30&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email</a></p>
<p>Now in physics David Bohm studied with Albert Einstein and introduced the notion of a "Holographic Universe" and where everything is connected to everything from the micro to macro. In other world a simpler way to see it as a explanation in a creation story explaining in physics how you arrived to this moment as an observer is simply this. 13.5 billion years ago the entire expanding universe that you witness right how as being outside of your human perception was created from in a big bang from the size of "green pee" and the unity that was inside the "green pee" is still happening throughout all the galaxies and universes that arose in that one moment. Even more interesting is time and space are only observer in this narrow 3 dimensional physical existence and the shattering quantum physics of E=MC2 ruptured permanently that view point and opened the field of cognitive science and the roll of "observers" in living systems create possible possibilities. </p>
<p>Good movie to watch </p>
<p><b>Mind Walk</b> <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen%2Ewikipedia%2Eorg%2Fwiki%2FMindwalk&urlhash=7mQw"><b>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindwalk</b></a></p>
<p>So everything everywhere throughout the entire universe is happening in the light of molecular dynamic self organized activity "autopoieitic niches"called identities and narratives in emotioning=languaging in the entire wen of life. And its all happening only by being alive in the moment, natural laws. There is no past or future, you are aware an enactive embodiment of continuously cognitive awareness presencing "itself" eternally and in infinite space and time, period. Cognition is solely an autopoietic self organizing process of continuous sorting the edges and redefining one's virtual idenity with new a narrative = a story explaining the generative mechanisms to bring you to this present moment. We are great at making up stories and we don't know if they are real or an illusion. Cognition is source presence being consciously aware as an "observer" and when this "nous enlightenment happens in enactive embodiment" there is no memory of the past or concern of the future. You experience directly internally the wholeness, maturity and transcendence of the "observer error" tripping up human existence. </p>
<p>Finally, and practically speaking in our current everyday lives and immediate conditional situation by realizing in living a biological cognitive stance in your virtual identity and narrative you enter a continuous praxis of self reflective source presence in your "pre'given niche of personal perceptions." You learn to step away from declaring "truth and reality" in human conversations. You become curious of "this" or "that" with another in live conversations. You become authentically vulnerable in the story telling and flexible in an open conversations to invent and generate a "shared niche" together in mutual agreement. We live in person to person conversations in every domain of permanent human concerns. Effective communications "hear" the validity of the "niche" being expressed without assessing or as truth or reality. It simply is. The domain of friendship is a social relationship where this autopoietic skillfulness happens in all of us. So, being autopoietic is not some new science, religious, spiritual, political, educational or commercial program or process. It's who we are as human beings as Homo sapiens amans, social loving humans, operating in natural law already always.</p>
<p>Once a person enactively embodies this praxis as of source presencing as an "observer" giving authentic reports of it'e own "niche of huamn experiences" mutual "shared niches" begin to appear as new dimensions of coupling effective actions everywhere in networks of conversations. i call this designing living organizations operating in "live speech acts" and as a standard praxis ruthlessly in rigorous communicative competency challenging pre'given "dead speech acts" in indoctrinated historic cultural belief systems of right and wrong, superiority and inferiority in positions, titles and publications. The P2P fundament is a social universal production cycle for building human trust in every domain of conversations in shared permanent concerns of business. Current institutional discourses of power based in ownership burns up like paper in laughter as autopoietic virtual identities self organize in synchronicity by grounding "assessments" and "assertions" of the truth of reality as explanatory generative mechanisms in conversation. We can stop killing each other. We are all in business together whether we like or not, and we build solidarity as a global society in a the new creative commons from the ashes of the tragedy of commons. Appreciative inquiry and dialog is the new social pattern. We are "creative assessment machines structurally determined to unify systems to serve wholeness." Our creative entrepreneurial spirit in our breath is always asking what is missing? And whatever I (you) (we) (us) do moment to moment is a creative act to generate a predicative directionality. We use our integrated stories as clay using social sculpting, our traditional histories are weaved into a beautiful new tapestry in our living together in joyful celebration, all the indoctrinated belief systems based in transcendental authority based in power are destroyed, our romantic notions of physical limited existence breaks through to a holograhic implicit scalar universe becoming explicit in our autonomous autopoietic realization in living, and the ghostly archetypes of gods and goddesses in Platos' Cave give way to the secret hidden in human perception in every ancestral pathway of our humanity. "All that has arisen in biological roots of human understandding converge into a new beginning in our humanity caring for the children of tomorrow in the household of our humanity ~ the web of life on earth. </p>
<p>Well, that is mouth full! Trust the implicit universe and become explicit in the biology love that constitutes, sustains and maintains all life. The is "Just One" creative principle and "IT" created everything and is the source presence having this conversation between you and I. Victory happens in witnessing the glory of others and adorning the beauty of living with one another. </p>
<p>Thank you for all the gifts you bring to cafe' and interest in my "niche of experiences as reflections." I'll wait for you to tell me what is real or an illusion?</p>
<p>Latter Mushin</p> My experience with this topic…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-05:6451976:Comment:330492012-10-05T20:51:54.146ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>My experience with this topic is that we've found a few well-established fast food restaurants along our path and we're busy getting all we can at the drive-thru window. Perhaps, sensing an 'ending' is a practical matter of not having the necessary time... or perhaps there is no group affinity to find more or better nutrition or diversity... My years say, "enougfor now Dyck, you will never be complete until you know what is real and what is not."</p>
<p>I'm rather comfortable hang gliding…</p>
<p>My experience with this topic is that we've found a few well-established fast food restaurants along our path and we're busy getting all we can at the drive-thru window. Perhaps, sensing an 'ending' is a practical matter of not having the necessary time... or perhaps there is no group affinity to find more or better nutrition or diversity... My years say, "enougfor now Dyck, you will never be complete until you know what is real and what is not."</p>
<p>I'm rather comfortable hang gliding in a sky called commitment and being a wave in a sea called promise... having only a slight expectation of there really being dry land on which to set foot... All so connected to my search for reality, the whole reality, nothing but reality... I swear! So sensing we're coming to a close on our topic, here is what I take away. This formed up in me after our Occupy Heart call yesterday. A surprise to myself.</p>
<p><strong>As with love, I am a servant of promise... not a master.</strong></p> Ben, I love this quote from B…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-05:6451976:Comment:329622012-10-05T00:33:09.918ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>Ben, I love this quote from Block's book. It seems obvious that the context here is the <em>free</em> action someone might take in a group or other social or societal situation. This also looks like a great starter in what I'm reading as sensible 'coping' with everyday life... to finding our way in the spiritual domain.</p>
<p>Just how <em>free</em> one's action is depends on their own impressions (formed by past experiences). All else being equal one is reasonably free. I don't mean to…</p>
<p>Ben, I love this quote from Block's book. It seems obvious that the context here is the <em>free</em> action someone might take in a group or other social or societal situation. This also looks like a great starter in what I'm reading as sensible 'coping' with everyday life... to finding our way in the spiritual domain.</p>
<p>Just how <em>free</em> one's action is depends on their own impressions (formed by past experiences). All else being equal one is reasonably free. I don't mean to minimize the internal binding and suffering that can occur when one sets up a inner conflict by making a wrong or imprudent promise/commitment. Perhaps in these instances the external manifestation of promise is simply a tool (if we notice) by which to learn the structure of integrity and perhaps the impossibility of being without duality (until one realizes God state).</p>
<p>By contrast, legal or quasi-legal use of promise/commitment is not free... or at least not without penalty or consequence. I'm referring to legal testimony, contract or implied contract, witness...</p> Dyck: I see a clear distincti…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-04:6451976:Comment:330392012-10-04T23:50:10.136ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Dyck: I see a clear distinction between a commitment, in the form of a promise, and telling the truth. How does telling the truth imply action? How does it draw me as co-creator of a future distinct from the past? These are the essential qualities I discern in the "promise made with no expectation of return," as distinct from "barter." </p>
<p>Perhaps this quote from Block might be useful in addressing some of what I hear as your discomfort with this framing?</p>
<blockquote><p>“I am…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Dyck: I see a clear distinction between a commitment, in the form of a promise, and telling the truth. How does telling the truth imply action? How does it draw me as co-creator of a future distinct from the past? These are the essential qualities I discern in the "promise made with no expectation of return," as distinct from "barter." </p>
<p>Perhaps this quote from Block might be useful in addressing some of what I hear as your discomfort with this framing?</p>
<blockquote><p>“I am willing to make no promise at this moment” is a fine and<br/>acceptable stance. It is a commitment of another kind. Saying “I pass” is<br/>an act of citizen refusal that is ennobling. This means that refusal does not<br/>cost someone their membership in the circle. We need to hold the space<br/>for that kind of refusal. When we honor the refusal of one person, we honor<br/>that choice for all persons. When one person says no, that person is speaking<br/>in some way for all of us. Holding space for refusal in the midst of a<br/>conversation for commitment gives depth and substance to the choice or<br/>commitment all others have made. </p>
<p style="text-align: right;">Community, p.138</p>
</blockquote> Nice to see that you're still…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-04:6451976:Comment:332302012-10-04T12:39:31.073ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Nice to see that you're still with us Pawel (as an aside, I'd love to have your help with <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/charles-eisenstein-s-sacred-economics" target="_blank">our Sacred Economics thread</a>, where I'm asking people to do some synthesis and harvesting of what's been posted so far).</p>
<p>Your link is certainly apt: </p>
<blockquote><p>"'[<span>T]he commitment effect"... is the condition of sticking with something 'long after it has become quite clear that…</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Nice to see that you're still with us Pawel (as an aside, I'd love to have your help with <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/charles-eisenstein-s-sacred-economics" target="_blank">our Sacred Economics thread</a>, where I'm asking people to do some synthesis and harvesting of what's been posted so far).</p>
<p>Your link is certainly apt: </p>
<blockquote><p>"'[<span>T]he commitment effect"... is the condition of sticking with something 'long after it has become quite clear that it's not doing anything for us' or is even hurtful. We do this because we have an irrational commitment to things we've been doing for a while and don't like the idea that our investment in that thing has been a waste.</span><a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/charles-eisenstein-s-sacred-economics"><br/></a></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span>This is why Block also suggests that we must have the "Dissent Conversation," which is commitment's "twin." "Yes" and "no" are friendly to each other. It is "lip service" that kills the possibility for creating a future distinct from the past. The Dissent Conversation includes these questions:</span></p>
<blockquote><ul>
<li>What is the no, or refusal, that you keep postponing?</li>
<li>What have you said yes to, that you no longer really mean?</li>
<li>What is a commitment or decision that you have changed your mind about?</li>
</ul>
<p style="text-align: right;"><span>(Block, Community: The Structure of Belonging, p. 135)</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: left;"><span>Perhaps our experience with "the commitment effect" is one reason we might be afraid to make new commitments, along with the notion that failure is "unacceptable." It's so much easier to be cynical and resigned than to step up, make a promise and take a risk.</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><span>Again, I'm reminded of <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/09/27-4" target="_blank">the piece by Rebecca Solnit</a> that I quoted at the top of this thread, and on our Cafe Call:</span></p>
<blockquote><p>There are really only two questions for activists: What do you want to achieve? And who do you want to be? And those two questions are deeply entwined. Every minute of every hour of every day you are making the world, just as you are making yourself, and you might as well do it with generosity and kindness and style.</p>
<p>That is the small ongoing victory on which great victories can be built, and you do want victories, don’t you? Make sure you’re clear on the answer to that, and think about what they would look like.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: left;"><span> </span></p> "the commitment effect"tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-04:6451976:Comment:330352012-10-04T07:30:17.612ZPawel Klewinhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/PawelKlewin
<p><a href="http://bigthink.com/big-think-tv/rationality-in-action-look-at-a-problem-as-an-outsider?utm_source=Big+Think+Weekly+Newsletter+Subscribers&utm_campaign=0f60bfc3c7-_Here_s_What_s_New_at_Big_Think10_3_2012&utm_medium=email" target="_blank">"the commitment effect"</a></p>
<p><a href="http://bigthink.com/big-think-tv/rationality-in-action-look-at-a-problem-as-an-outsider?utm_source=Big+Think+Weekly+Newsletter+Subscribers&utm_campaign=0f60bfc3c7-_Here_s_What_s_New_at_Big_Think10_3_2012&utm_medium=email" target="_blank">"the commitment effect"</a></p> Thanks. tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-03:6451976:Comment:332152012-10-03T13:19:29.145ZElaine Hansenhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/ElaineHansen
<p>Thanks. </p>
<p>Thanks. </p> I'm conflicted in my response…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-03:6451976:Comment:332142012-10-03T02:22:54.101ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>I'm conflicted in my responses to you CA, but being a Dutchman I got to say what it is. </p>
<p>On one hand I feel a sense of affection and challenge in my sense of wanting to be totally inclusive in finding ways to communicate with everyone. On the other hand I feel violated or abused by someone simply using me & others... albeit without intentional malice... So why is this?</p>
<p>In spite of this I don't claim any waste of time, for myself or anyone who makes appropriate use of any…</p>
<p>I'm conflicted in my responses to you CA, but being a Dutchman I got to say what it is. </p>
<p>On one hand I feel a sense of affection and challenge in my sense of wanting to be totally inclusive in finding ways to communicate with everyone. On the other hand I feel violated or abused by someone simply using me & others... albeit without intentional malice... So why is this?</p>
<p>In spite of this I don't claim any waste of time, for myself or anyone who makes appropriate use of any & all of life's stimuli. Of course there are other different conclusions, insights, and I state only extremes as I see it. It's a stress I am encountering in myself with many of your responses. I find this testing me to avoid your comments versus my strong inclination to know who you are and what's important to you. I wish you to see this as my most honest and sincere handshake.</p> Ben, my seat mate... I gaze o…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-03:6451976:Comment:332132012-10-03T01:36:19.860ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>Ben, my seat mate... I gaze out the window, trying my best to see what's whisking by this train. Having left the station, sensing a head of steam, it's not destined to stop until next scheduled town. Do i dare be the desperado, ambushing the train solely to see if there's any gold aboard? </p>
<p>1. Is a commitment or promise simply another, maybe more prominent way to emphasize truthfulness than in regular conversation?</p>
<p>2. What is the Value of a promise or commitment (to the…</p>
<p>Ben, my seat mate... I gaze out the window, trying my best to see what's whisking by this train. Having left the station, sensing a head of steam, it's not destined to stop until next scheduled town. Do i dare be the desperado, ambushing the train solely to see if there's any gold aboard? </p>
<p>1. Is a commitment or promise simply another, maybe more prominent way to emphasize truthfulness than in regular conversation?</p>
<p>2. What is the Value of a promise or commitment (to the giver... to the receiver) ?</p>
<p>3. If the giver has no expectation and the receiver perceives little or no value, then what results as the giver works or sacrifices indefinitely?</p>
<p><em>Perhaps after this you'd let me introduce inquiry to bring in the uses of words like Promise, Commitment, Swearing, Oath, Covenant, Contract. Perhaps we'd look at the benefits, legal requirements, sacrifices or trade-offs of making versus not making promises et al.</em></p> C.A.
I promise to explain my…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-10-02:6451976:Comment:329442012-10-02T23:04:01.964ZMushinhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/PatricRoberts
<p>C.A.</p>
<p>I promise to explain my definitions of the lexicon I use as a person who fell in love with cognitive science in 1984. I intend to do so in a group conversation because learning about autopoiese is not necessarily easy, if it was, everyone would already know about it. I am not a new ager rather a biological conservative operating in a constructive understanding of language. Give me a few days to set up time and we can converse regarding the distinctions offered. One thought to…</p>
<p>C.A.</p>
<p>I promise to explain my definitions of the lexicon I use as a person who fell in love with cognitive science in 1984. I intend to do so in a group conversation because learning about autopoiese is not necessarily easy, if it was, everyone would already know about it. I am not a new ager rather a biological conservative operating in a constructive understanding of language. Give me a few days to set up time and we can converse regarding the distinctions offered. One thought to consider until then is this. We do not "see" with our eyes. Human perception is primarily based in "linguistic symbols" and seeing and being occurs in language. Words are symbols that create "distinctions" in our nervous systems and the system sees in words oral and written. Offering a new word such as "Wolakota" the distinction living in treaty P2P in peace and friendship without greed, shifts the internal reflection in the plasticity of the central nervous systems and a new pair of eyes emerge and you start seeing the world differently. It's all internal and you control the choices you see the world through not the other way around.</p>
<p>Latter Mushin</p>
<p></p>
<p> </p>