Confronting Climate Change: theme for the week of 12/9/12 - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T05:48:00Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/confronting-climate-change?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A35823&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI help others teach anarchism…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2013-01-07:6451976:Comment:368392013-01-07T22:46:46.966ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>I help others teach anarchism, an aboveground system to benefit everyone.</p>
<p>If people can move away from ancient fascist texts, and prayers to nonexistent war gods, Armageddon won't be necessary.</p>
<p>Strange how so-called positivists and proponents of spirituality always seem to accept genocide as necessary and inevitable. Their positivism and spirituality always ends up killing milliions of people because they believe it is necessary and inevitable.</p>
<p>It was Dwight D.…</p>
<p>I help others teach anarchism, an aboveground system to benefit everyone.</p>
<p>If people can move away from ancient fascist texts, and prayers to nonexistent war gods, Armageddon won't be necessary.</p>
<p>Strange how so-called positivists and proponents of spirituality always seem to accept genocide as necessary and inevitable. Their positivism and spirituality always ends up killing milliions of people because they believe it is necessary and inevitable.</p>
<p>It was Dwight D. Eisenhower who said, "<font face="Arial" size="4"><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font face="Arial"><font size="2">Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it." The same goes for religions. What <font size="2">giv<font size="2">es me hope is that despi<font size="2">t</font>e the billions of dollars they spend on elections and prose<font size="2">l<font size="2">y</font>tizing, governments ha<font size="2">ve fewer voters <font size="2">and religions have fewer adherents. When people stop believing the lies of governments and religions, and start listening to their own hearts and consciences, there will be peace.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="4"><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2">Clim<font size="2">ate change is the result of peopl<font size="2">e believing that the world is property and that g<font size="2">overnments have a right to own and <font size="2">destroy it. <font size="2">The indigenous peoples who nurtured <font size="2">and respected the earth for tens of thousands of years are once again rising up toi stop the avaricious <font size="2">self-destructive stupidity of so-called "civilization." There is nothing civilized about kill<font size="2">ing people and destroying the planet. It is barbaric, and those who believe i<font size="2">it is necessary and inevit<font size="2">able are the real barbarians and savages.<br/></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p></p> Bingo!tag:www.occupycafe.org,2013-01-07:6451976:Comment:368302013-01-07T08:51:27.390ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>Bingo!</p>
<p>Bingo!</p> The convolutions herein are i…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2013-01-07:6451976:Comment:365622013-01-07T07:08:08.334Zdon carlinhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/doncarlin
<p>The convolutions herein are interesting and fairly typical of those who ignore the typical base line for the entirely misnamed 'elitist representative democracies' of which the United States stands firmly at the head of the queue. Movements for this or movements for whatever gain little real ground, and such gains as are made are too easily nullified by replacement and the steady drip drip of counter erosion by governmental systems which will by every possible means, including the use of…</p>
<p>The convolutions herein are interesting and fairly typical of those who ignore the typical base line for the entirely misnamed 'elitist representative democracies' of which the United States stands firmly at the head of the queue. Movements for this or movements for whatever gain little real ground, and such gains as are made are too easily nullified by replacement and the steady drip drip of counter erosion by governmental systems which will by every possible means, including the use of lethal force, put down any attempt by the plebeian mob to take control.</p>
<p>and the base line is very easily demonstrated - thus</p>
<p><strong>• Basic Senators (no leadership position)</strong> – $174,000</p>
<p><strong>• Majority and Minority Leaders</strong> – $193,400</p>
<p><strong>• President Pro Tempore</strong> – $223,500</p>
<p><strong>• Vice President (President of the Senate)</strong> – $230,700</p>
<p></p>
<p>and - to quote from my own writings -</p>
<blockquote><p class="western" align="justify"><font size="3">"In America a similar two party domination holds in a political landscape wherein money is King. In the 2008 elections, candidates for office, political parties, and independent groups spent a total of <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/index.php" name="total spend on 2008 US election">$5.3 billion</a> on federal elections. The amount spent on the presidential race alone was <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15283.html" name="pres race cost 2008">$2.4 billion</a>, and over $1 billion of that was spent by the campaigns of the two major candidates: Barack Obama spent $730 million in his election campaign, and John McCain spent $333 million. (<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/index.php">http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/index.php</a>)</font></p>
<p class="western" align="justify">In the 2010 midterm election cycle, candidates for office, political parties, and independent groups spent a total of $3.6 billion on federal elections. The average winner of a seat in the House of Representatives spent $1.4 million on his or her campaign. The average winner of a Senate seat spent $9.8 million. (<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/elec_stats.php?cycle=2010">http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/elec_stats.php?cycle=2010</a>) There is only one class of people who can afford to pick up those election tabs. Almost without exception these election candidates are essentially and in their majority, scions of the elites and their electioneering funding is derived and supplied in great part through connections with big business.</p>
<p class="western" align="justify">One is given to wonder what the attraction and pecuniary advantages are which might cause anyone to spend an average of $9.8 million, and by this to become indebted as above, in order to win a seat in the Senate? That kind of money isn't raised in its majority from public donations and its rarely funded in its entirety from the personal fortunes of those who seek election, nor yet from their families, so to whom are they indebted when they raise a glass to their lips in victory? A debt which is renewed every time they fight for re-election.</p>
<p class="western" align="justify">Before those who would become our political masters can attain such power they must first bend the knee to the high echelons of big business, not least of which are the global purveyors of ubiquitous debt, the Bankers. Our political leaders are bought and paid for with financial and media support offered and accepted both by implicit and open understandings, for there is nothing of altruism in the motives of these global megaliths. Behind closed doors in meetings arranged and dinners most private and well away from the public gaze, deals and understandings are almost certainly tacitly and overtly offered, discussed and accepted."</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Its also an entirely misunderstood belief that Americans live within a democracy, (and that misunderstanding is equally the case with every nation which so describes their governance) Tinker you may, for that's all that's left you - but change will take a great deal more than that.You are arguing and discussing within a wilderness of misunderstandings and, by history attested, from positions which have no real grounding. And I quote again from my own writings -</p>
<blockquote class="western"><font color="#4C1900">“How then can it be possible for anyone to have a meaningful view of the human condition if they do not know how and from whence they came, and to where they might be going, let alone where exactly they, and we, are today?”</font></blockquote>
<p>.And that 'democracy' thing?</p>
<p>Try looking up Plutocracy instead?</p>
<p></p> Humanity is not a failed expe…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-12-17:6451976:Comment:361272012-12-17T20:03:15.817ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>Humanity is not a failed experiment, Wendell, civilization is. Surveys show that most voters are comfortable with wars of aggression, one of the biggest drivers of climate change due to the huge amounts of fossil fuels needed to wage eight wars halfway across the globe, and I think the reason is because they know that those wars are the only way they can maintain their comfortable civilized lifestyles.</p>
<p>It makes me feel sad, angry, and frustrated, like when I see a neighbor of mine…</p>
<p>Humanity is not a failed experiment, Wendell, civilization is. Surveys show that most voters are comfortable with wars of aggression, one of the biggest drivers of climate change due to the huge amounts of fossil fuels needed to wage eight wars halfway across the globe, and I think the reason is because they know that those wars are the only way they can maintain their comfortable civilized lifestyles.</p>
<p>It makes me feel sad, angry, and frustrated, like when I see a neighbor of mine with diabetes eating unhealthy foods guaranteed to make her condition worse. I've tried to buy her healthier foods, but she likes her comfort foods. She's in a lot of physical pain due to those comfort foods.</p>
<p>I'd like to see people stop hurting themselves, but it's like explaining to my neighbor why the foods she is eating make her condition worse and why she should stop. She listens, she understands what I'm saying, and she knows that I'm right, but she can't stop. She likes me, she knows I care about her, but I've become an annoyance. When I take her to lunch, I choose healthy places, but when she makes her own decisions, they aren't healthy. Just like with my neighbor, I've been so repetitive that everyone here knows exactly what I'd have them do, but they can't, they won't, and they don't want to hear about it any more. I'm just an annoyance.</p>
<p>I'm going to be giving a 5-minute presentation to my co-op's board of directors this afternoon. They'll listen, they'll read the handouts I'll give them, they'll understand, and they'll even agree, but they won't stop doing what they're doing. What they're doing is contrary to their stated values and principles, but they can't stop. Maybe if we're still around in ten years, some of them will come back to me and tell me that I was right, but it will be much too late. I'm low income, but I spent $25 xeroxing those handouts, and I've spent hours every day for over a week honing my 5-minute talk. I know it's probably a complete waste of my time and money, and if my survival wasn't tied up with theirs, I wouldn't even bother. But sometimes there have been breakthroughs, and sometimes I break through to somebody who is a much better communicator and organizer than I am.</p>
<p></p> Mark: are you then predicting…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-12-17:6451976:Comment:361232012-12-17T16:30:30.912ZWendell Fitzgeraldhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/WendellFitzgerald
<p>Mark: are you then predicting humanity as a failed experiment? Is there no way to have it work for us and the planet? If there is no way to have it work successfully however you define that, how do you feel about that (feel, I see what you think) and what woud you have the rest of us do if anything with that? </p>
<p>Mark: are you then predicting humanity as a failed experiment? Is there no way to have it work for us and the planet? If there is no way to have it work successfully however you define that, how do you feel about that (feel, I see what you think) and what woud you have the rest of us do if anything with that? </p> Wendell, what I've found is t…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-12-17:6451976:Comment:362292012-12-17T03:34:54.558ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>Wendell, what I've found is that rational argument, logic, and emotional appeal, even when the emotional aspect is already strenuously engaged, will always fail when tribalism is involved. People have loyalties to other people and identify with other people in certain ways, so everyone becomes either "one of us" or "one of them," either "a friend," or "not a friend."</p>
<p>We're well past the point of no return with regard to climate change, so arguments that making it just a little worse…</p>
<p>Wendell, what I've found is that rational argument, logic, and emotional appeal, even when the emotional aspect is already strenuously engaged, will always fail when tribalism is involved. People have loyalties to other people and identify with other people in certain ways, so everyone becomes either "one of us" or "one of them," either "a friend," or "not a friend."</p>
<p>We're well past the point of no return with regard to climate change, so arguments that making it just a little worse is better than theoretically making it much worse, only support making it worse, rather than stopping or even reversing climate change. Those who identify as being civilized and progressive, will not consider arguments that we stop activities which increase climate change, because civilization and progress require the planetary destruction that is driving climate change.</p>
<p>Identity is who we are, or at least who we think or believe we are. So when people find their identities challenged, they raise the drawbridges over their protective moats and defend themselves against any threats to their identities. It is almost impossible for most people to think of existing without being who they are, even if being who they are means that they will soon make it impossible to exist.</p>
<p>So people think of ways they can pretend to oppose climate change without having to stop supporting everything that is driving climate change, in order to protect their identity. You can't convince a person to stop being themself, even if being themself means that they are destroying the planet without which they couldn't exist.</p>
<p></p> I make the mistake of thinkin…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-12-17:6451976:Comment:363212012-12-17T00:04:17.708ZWendell Fitzgeraldhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/WendellFitzgerald
<p>I make the mistake of thinking that rational argument and logic are persuasive or even informative if the emotional aspect is not already engaged. Please forgive me for repeating my stuff. Perhaps it might become relevant some other place and time and be of use then.</p>
<p>I make the mistake of thinking that rational argument and logic are persuasive or even informative if the emotional aspect is not already engaged. Please forgive me for repeating my stuff. Perhaps it might become relevant some other place and time and be of use then.</p> You are indeed a compassionat…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-12-15:6451976:Comment:361132012-12-15T19:26:38.825ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>You are indeed a compassionate and vital man, Richard. Hearing your chivalry makes me feel really good! You're helping me 'see' you and I genuinely aspire to your stature.</p>
<p>A good deal of what we're engaging in is what I'll call the bridge between the inner and the outer world... the seen and the unseen... the gross and the subtle... the apparent and the real... the paradoxical...</p>
<p>Frankly, it challenges my capacity of intellect & memory. So, as you may notice I'm…</p>
<p>You are indeed a compassionate and vital man, Richard. Hearing your chivalry makes me feel really good! You're helping me 'see' you and I genuinely aspire to your stature.</p>
<p>A good deal of what we're engaging in is what I'll call the bridge between the inner and the outer world... the seen and the unseen... the gross and the subtle... the apparent and the real... the paradoxical...</p>
<p>Frankly, it challenges my capacity of intellect & memory. So, as you may notice I'm propelled to distill at every turn when possible...</p>
<p>I also tend to shun too much use of my intellect for theory or opinion (tho I have plenty), in favor of intuition, rational thinking, question-forming, acute observation, acute observation during self expression, finding that which I admire or aspire to, finding the lesson in every situation, etc..</p>
<p>It's a common misconception that Darwin included the Human Species in his work. In fact, it along with creation was excluded. Yet everything up to the Human is included in Evolutionary Theory. Here is part of the rest of the story. (this is a partial story of creation... if you want to know more or the source, just ask)</p>
<p>Evolution is a process in the growth of consciousness from zero (stone) to full. Man is at the end of evolution and is the end result... having full consciousness. Full consciousness however, doesn't imply full use of that consciousness. To partake of full capacity man must make the journey of 'involution'. This equally long journey is inward, gradually to weaken and unravel the knots of millions of years of experiences or impressions/sanskaras that evermore dictate behavior (such as eat or be eaten, procreation). Obviously, these impressions are focused on the center of self. When, through millions of reincarnations and weakening impressions, the center of self is no more... the knowing of Self as God is realized.</p>
<p></p> If the shoe fits... When som…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-12-15:6451976:Comment:362202012-12-15T18:35:20.521ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>If the shoe fits... When someone has one message... and it keeps coming... and it is the answer to every question... and explanations get longer and elaborate... and no matter the other discourse, it comes back around to that singular message... then something isn't working as relationship between people. In fact, it's not relationship because the essential qualities for getting a foothold in relationship are missing. </p>
<p>In this forum many if not most of us have strong feelings…</p>
<p>If the shoe fits... When someone has one message... and it keeps coming... and it is the answer to every question... and explanations get longer and elaborate... and no matter the other discourse, it comes back around to that singular message... then something isn't working as relationship between people. In fact, it's not relationship because the essential qualities for getting a foothold in relationship are missing. </p>
<p>In this forum many if not most of us have strong feelings and intentions and plenty of intellect. And we care about our world, about others, and ourselves... but, every inhabitant of earth would claim this, no? </p>
<p>What is it that makes us different, if we are different? I think we're more tolerant of one another because we can see we each have our warts and farts. I need tolerance from others, knowing I share a lot of commonality. So, I need 'space' for my own journey, to listen to myself and others in order to learn. Rather than competition & ambition, perhaps there's a basis of affection and safety here that holds us all. I sense this and it makes me want to be completely honest.</p> Dyck, I’m feeling somewhat gu…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-12-15:6451976:Comment:362192012-12-15T18:25:52.736ZRichard Waddellhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RichardWaddell
<p>Dyck, I’m feeling somewhat guilty because continuing this thread may be off topic, but writing about my favorite unknowns is too attractive to forego. I’ll try to find some way to tie it to our topic. You may be more interested in unknown unknowns, Dyck, but I don’t know how to write about or contemplate unknown unknowns. </p>
<p>Our unknowns (Mysteries) serve to bind us together. We are like children huddled together for protection from the mysterious shadows.</p>
<p>One of the more…</p>
<p>Dyck, I’m feeling somewhat guilty because continuing this thread may be off topic, but writing about my favorite unknowns is too attractive to forego. I’ll try to find some way to tie it to our topic. You may be more interested in unknown unknowns, Dyck, but I don’t know how to write about or contemplate unknown unknowns. </p>
<p>Our unknowns (Mysteries) serve to bind us together. We are like children huddled together for protection from the mysterious shadows.</p>
<p>One of the more interesting unknowns has to do with consciousness. I recently read an article about a future event dubbed the singularity. This event is the construction of a computer that is smart enough to build even smarter computers. At this point, the computers will begin their take-over of the world. I’ve done some studies in AI (Artificial Intelligence), and I don’t think this event can ever occur. The author doesn’t even question whether a computer could have consciousness – could be conscious of itself. Which brings me to one of the most intriguing unknowns. What is it in our architecture that causes us to be conscious of ourselves and of our surroundings? Or is it something external to us?</p>
<p>Experiments in quantum physics make this question even more interesting. Some (split screen) experiments seem to suggest our consciousness is connected to the material world. Charles Eisenstein wrote in “Sacred Economics” about the need for reconciliation between our material world and our spiritual world. Perhaps science will make the connection. (See also “Reenchantment of the World” by Morris Berman)</p>
<p>Much is also unknown about our unconscious, especially our universal or collective unconscious. Is it possible, as some believe, our collective unconscious is more than just an evolutionary inheritance? Are Jung’s archetypes from within or from without? </p>
<p>Time is eternally mysterious. Are we destined to hurdle forward in one direction along one dimension for all eternity? Or is it possible to be flipped around through time as happened to Billy Pilgrim in Kurt Vonnegut’s “Slaughterhouse Five?” And who does the flipping? Another experiment in quantum physics (delayed decision) seems to suggest that a measurement decision can affect past events.</p>
<p>Death is an unknown. The sting is mitigated by the possibility of entering our last great learning adventure. As the old hymn says: “We will understand it better bye and bye.”</p>
<p>You posit an unknown, Dyck, that I don’t remember ever encountering: “if God stood before me how would I know it was real and true? ... would I use my intellect? would I look for proof or devise a test?” I’ve erased several comments on this topic. I need to give it some more thought. </p>
<p>God is perhaps the ultimate mystery. I rejected the god of the Old Testament in my college days. (Education corrupts, I guess.) Now I prefer to think of Her as someone like Mother Nature. (Or how about Mother Nurture?) </p>
<p>Sin is a two-edged mystery. Sin’s reputation was partially restored by Howard Bloom in “The Lucifer Principle.” Mother Nature used sin and evolution to bring humanity to its present state. (I did say “partially restored.”) </p>
<p>My Southern Baptist upbringing gave me an oppressive sense of sin, but I believe most of this sense now comes from evolution. For example, suicide became a sin because it reduces the numbers in our tribe. My training in statistics gave me some further complications (unknowns) to contemplate. Does God consider it a sin when you act, for no good reason, to put yourself in a situation that results in a high probability of death? </p>
<p>Our religious feelings or maybe evolution gives us a strong urge to preserve life. Almost all of us feel obligated to protect children. Most of us, I think, would have put ourselves in danger to save any of those children killed in Newtown. Some of us, those of us who have already done a lot of living, would probably have traded our lives for one of the children.</p>
<p>Then let us ponder this relevant question. How could any of us not do all that is within us to save all the children of this planet? This is why we must seriously confront climate change.</p>