Gifts: Vital Conversation for the Week of 11/5 - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T11:32:36Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/gifts-vital-conversation-for-the-week-of-11-5?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A34387&feed=yes&xn_auth=noFirst I apologize. I had no…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-12:6451976:Comment:343992012-11-12T19:47:50.689ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>First I apologize. I had no intent to be critical or disrespectful... just to state my own truth.</p>
<p>The instances that triggered this in me was back 3 or 4 posts with you and Ben. It is quite a common attribute on any forum.. <em>to talk about what others mean, to make statements on their behalf, and to quote an authority</em> to gain more credibility in making a point. I do this myself occasionally too. But, I feel the need to say, it can be damaging and I don't like it. In…</p>
<p>First I apologize. I had no intent to be critical or disrespectful... just to state my own truth.</p>
<p>The instances that triggered this in me was back 3 or 4 posts with you and Ben. It is quite a common attribute on any forum.. <em>to talk about what others mean, to make statements on their behalf, and to quote an authority</em> to gain more credibility in making a point. I do this myself occasionally too. But, I feel the need to say, it can be damaging and I don't like it. In dialogue it seems to often take us in a personal direction apart from one another... and escapes exposing what we don't or do <em>really</em> know... hierarchy often does that. Personal and relationship clarity is enhanced when not having to 'lean on' another or an authority.</p>
<p></p> Jerry, you say "I can't this.…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-11:6451976:Comment:343872012-11-11T20:10:58.367ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>Jerry, you say "I can't this." and "I don't that." and "I want to..." That must be your 'inner sanctum' view... cuz this never comes across in our dialogues. This is an unusual post for you and I sense you getting closer to me... Saying this must be quite necessary. Thank you, thank you. I'm hearing lots of love in this... perhaps she's fencing with whatever pesky ego you've got left.</p>
<p>Out here, you're adding to the fresh air in my life. You're stories are full of fresh air and…</p>
<p>Jerry, you say "I can't this." and "I don't that." and "I want to..." That must be your 'inner sanctum' view... cuz this never comes across in our dialogues. This is an unusual post for you and I sense you getting closer to me... Saying this must be quite necessary. Thank you, thank you. I'm hearing lots of love in this... perhaps she's fencing with whatever pesky ego you've got left.</p>
<p>Out here, you're adding to the fresh air in my life. You're stories are full of fresh air and truth. And as you often imply, you've earned that truth. And if you don't know this value, it doesn't diminish it in any way... (maybe there is some humility here too). I see your experience and clear eyed honesty as part of your bedrock, along w powerful love for humanity, that make Jerry who he is. Wouldn't you expect this to include some fragility & confusion?</p>
<p>You make a difference... in my life.<br/> PS, I've been meaning to talk with you more about your ideas of getting our 'new ideas' into schools. I have a lot of energy for this and know our changes will come in the future.... mostly after I've dropped my body (died).</p> Dyck - I'm afraid I'm not tra…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-10:6451976:Comment:345122012-11-10T20:41:35.015ZElaine Hansenhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/ElaineHansen
<p>Dyck - I'm afraid I'm not tracking with you on "I don't much like talking about what "others"might do or mean."</p>
<p>I've re-read my posts here - and I spoke from a personal perspective. I'm confused - can you point out to me where I "talked about others might do or mean?"</p>
<p>And yes, of course, everyone is on their own journey and at their own pace and uses the tools that work for them. Did you think I meant otherwise? </p>
<p>And the questions we use are always meant as an…</p>
<p>Dyck - I'm afraid I'm not tracking with you on "I don't much like talking about what "others"might do or mean."</p>
<p>I've re-read my posts here - and I spoke from a personal perspective. I'm confused - can you point out to me where I "talked about others might do or mean?"</p>
<p>And yes, of course, everyone is on their own journey and at their own pace and uses the tools that work for them. Did you think I meant otherwise? </p>
<p>And the questions we use are always meant as an <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>invitation</strong></span> to self-reflection. The key word being <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>"invitation"</strong></span> - saying I pass or no, is a good answer.</p>
<p>And like you, I am reading others posts through my own filters and perceptions and trying hard to set those aside, to hear what they are really saying - not what I assume they are saying.</p>
<p></p> Hi Ben - on the "let go of th…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-10:6451976:Comment:344732012-11-10T16:12:54.120ZElaine Hansenhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/ElaineHansen
<p>Hi Ben - on the "let go of the need for efficacy and success" - I think that is exactly what "without expectation of recognition or reward" is about. For me, the question as crafted calls me reflect on my actions and motives to discover "what am I willing to do for the well being of the whole?"...a selfless act. <br></br><br></br>I am doing what I do with the hope it will contribute to creating a better world for the generations that come after me - and realizing I may never know if it makes any…</p>
<p>Hi Ben - on the "let go of the need for efficacy and success" - I think that is exactly what "without expectation of recognition or reward" is about. For me, the question as crafted calls me reflect on my actions and motives to discover "what am I willing to do for the well being of the whole?"...a selfless act. <br/><br/>I am doing what I do with the hope it will contribute to creating a better world for the generations that come after me - and realizing I may never know if it makes any difference.</p> How innocent and fulfilling i…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-10:6451976:Comment:343772012-11-10T03:30:58.081ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>How innocent and fulfilling is your work here, Patricia. I'm fascinated by this form of expression... wanting to find ever more ways to use our natural gifts to express ourselves. To me it most certainly takes all we got, and more than simply talk. </p>
<p>For example I've dreamed of doing something like telling my story in performance using all possible forms of expression... my talking mouth, singing mouth, wailing mouth, sound & nonsense mouth. noisy mouth, shaping mouth, dancing…</p>
<p>How innocent and fulfilling is your work here, Patricia. I'm fascinated by this form of expression... wanting to find ever more ways to use our natural gifts to express ourselves. To me it most certainly takes all we got, and more than simply talk. </p>
<p>For example I've dreamed of doing something like telling my story in performance using all possible forms of expression... my talking mouth, singing mouth, wailing mouth, sound & nonsense mouth. noisy mouth, shaping mouth, dancing mouth, silent mouth... adding dancing or body movement, shaping and stillness, mime and sync... combining with other sound expressions like instrument and vocal and made-up sound, poetry and recitations, manual rhythms and gestural dynamics, facial explorations, vocal story, body story, musical story, drawing, pictorial expressions, painting and collage, and combinations of all these and more. This last piece of manual drawing to express has eluded me. Your creativity is impressive.</p>
<p>Thank you for this demonstration of melding mind, hand and public expression with story telling. I hope you will continue to explore with this audience. It is refreshing to me, adding a completely new dimension to communication and to personal expression. I'm hoping you and I can connect sometime too. Dyck</p> Elaine, I'm participating per…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-07:6451976:Comment:342732012-11-07T03:49:30.796ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>Elaine, I'm participating perhaps like others, to help me move along my path to living in harmony with other on the earth. And like seeking love, I don't feel the need to have education, skill or training to find my way. I do appreciate Ben's posted quotes. But, I don't much like talking about what 'others' might do or mean.</p>
<p>I mostly view these books of Wheatley and Block and others as tools for teachers and facilitators. For it is you who must bridge the gap of the participants. …</p>
<p>Elaine, I'm participating perhaps like others, to help me move along my path to living in harmony with other on the earth. And like seeking love, I don't feel the need to have education, skill or training to find my way. I do appreciate Ben's posted quotes. But, I don't much like talking about what 'others' might do or mean.</p>
<p>I mostly view these books of Wheatley and Block and others as tools for teachers and facilitators. For it is you who must bridge the gap of the participants. You must see that all of us, including teachers, facilitators and authors are at differing places on personal journeys. Books might also be used as a substitute (a poor one) for the difficult and general lack of capability for an inquiry process.</p>
<p>My sight is that most of us are not yet aware of an inner world. Others are in various stages of awakening and have not yet begun an inward journey. A few others have begun an inner movement and some attune to more subtle paths... and beyond. Yet we must live together and somehow communicate to find harmony. If you agree with this line of deduction perhaps you see the leaning for all, including us, teachers and facilitators, is coming from the intermixing of these journeys as we find our interconnectedness. </p> Heather, what you feel sounds…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-07:6451976:Comment:342712012-11-07T02:26:27.630ZDyck Dewidhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DyckDewid
<p>Heather, what you feel sounds to me like the process of dying. A comment from Oct 8 Indigenous Wisdom discussion:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>"The Earth owns us."</strong> was a quote by Ernestine on today's call.</p>
<p>In me Mother Earth evokes a construct of the unity, for the 'me-and-all-things' as earth and the heavens... I name it also... intelligence, balance, harmony, love, infinity... among the many names for God. Surely it's undeniable in nature- the endless, varying cycles that…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Heather, what you feel sounds to me like the process of dying. A comment from Oct 8 Indigenous Wisdom discussion:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>"The Earth owns us."</strong> was a quote by Ernestine on today's call.</p>
<p>In me Mother Earth evokes a construct of the unity, for the 'me-and-all-things' as earth and the heavens... I name it also... intelligence, balance, harmony, love, infinity... among the many names for God. Surely it's undeniable in nature- the endless, varying cycles that prevail and balance... that sustains life, creates anew, and necessarily destroys or ends it. </p>
<p><em>(note, I limit this... but acknowledge that perhaps most connections are not directly observable even in the physical, also in the spiritual and the occult.)</em></p>
<p>Isn't Mother of all the seasons small and great... the ancient cycles of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva (Creator, Sustainer, Destroyer)? And aren't seasons, to the best of our observation and experience, inherent of existence and inevitable? To me, the cycles/Seasons is a comfortable construct... like being in the hands of Great Intelligence. I repeatedly see and experience and 'know' the wondrous results of death and birth and growth... </p>
<p>But for most, when I bring the 'me' into the idea of 'ending' there is resistance, conflict... fear, no? "Why don't I want to end?" Do I think I'm separate, exempt, special, not a part of this unity? I'm confused and conflicted and so maybe in denial my whole life. So, I suffer my submerged fears all my life, being in conflict with reality, and then even more as I near my actual ending of life... until the great teacher readies me to surrender and learn.</p>
<p>But, now it's obvious <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>we must be within one or more of the Greater Seasons, no?</strong>.</span> And to me it seems our cycle has past the Sustainer and is within the Destroyer. Why is this so bad? <strong>Why would we, who are mere specks of dust, question the Great Intelligence with her endless no-strings-attached promise of abundance and love...</strong></p>
<p><strong>Maybe <em>OUR</em> job is simply to find our true selves... to our highest capability, learn to</strong> <strong>serve others and the earth</strong>....</p>
<p>... <em>"and leave the driving to the Mother"</em></p>
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<p>Are we all being thrust into kicking and screaming our denials of our imminent death?</p>
<p>To consider all this, am I worried about what others will think... or that others aren't ready for this 'radicalness'... or, about the children... or, that you don't yet know your purpose or meaning in life... or, that you don't yet have a construct of existence or of life after death... or, that you don't feel grounded in spirituality... or, that you're afraid? I realize all this must be dealt with first. And if we need to deal with our fear, lets do it... together trying not to cover it up.<em><br/></em></p>
<p>Surely there is unbelievable beauty in reality... whatever it is. Is it worth (the risk) to know?<em><br/></em></p> Isn't it deeper than forsakin…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-06:6451976:Comment:342702012-11-06T20:59:34.403ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Isn't it deeper than forsaking "recognition and reward," Elaine? I hear Meg saying we would do well to let go of the need for efficacy and success, at least at any scale that takes us towards "saving the world.".</p>
<p>Isn't it deeper than forsaking "recognition and reward," Elaine? I hear Meg saying we would do well to let go of the need for efficacy and success, at least at any scale that takes us towards "saving the world.".</p> Ben - thanks for sharing this…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-06:6451976:Comment:343542012-11-06T19:38:21.158ZElaine Hansenhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/ElaineHansen
<p>Ben - thanks for sharing this passage from Meg's new book. Yes, to what Meg is saying. I/we need to be grounded in reality. I heard Peter Senge say something like - a vision not grounded in reality leads to chaos. We are in the midst of a huge transformation. It could go either way. I am choosing to believe that it will land on the side of what is best in humanity - kindness, compassion, community, abundance, generosity, and more.</p>
<p>What Meg says also answers the commitment…</p>
<p>Ben - thanks for sharing this passage from Meg's new book. Yes, to what Meg is saying. I/we need to be grounded in reality. I heard Peter Senge say something like - a vision not grounded in reality leads to chaos. We are in the midst of a huge transformation. It could go either way. I am choosing to believe that it will land on the side of what is best in humanity - kindness, compassion, community, abundance, generosity, and more.</p>
<p>What Meg says also answers the commitment question, "what are you willing to do without expectation of recognition or reward for the well being of the whole?"</p>
<p>I say I am standing for creating a better world for the children and seven generations beyond. </p> Based on Heather's reply, I f…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-06:6451976:Comment:344242012-11-06T18:25:17.611ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Based on Heather's reply, I feel compelled to post the next section. </p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Dark Nights of the Soul</strong><br></br>Although I write these words as simple declarative statements,<br></br>I do not underestimate how difficult they are to<br></br>accept. It has taken me many years and several dark nights<br></br>of the soul to come to terms with what is going on. Nowadays<br></br>we label dark nights as depression, but in spiritual<br></br>traditions, this descent into darkness is recognized as…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Based on Heather's reply, I feel compelled to post the next section. </p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Dark Nights of the Soul</strong><br/>Although I write these words as simple declarative statements,<br/>I do not underestimate how difficult they are to<br/>accept. It has taken me many years and several dark nights<br/>of the soul to come to terms with what is going on. Nowadays<br/>we label dark nights as depression, but in spiritual<br/>traditions, this descent into darkness is recognized as the<br/>journey into greater meaning. Dark nights are also excellent<br/>examples of how chaos works to create more capacity;<br/>like all living systems, we first have to fall apart before<br/>we can figure out how to reorganize ourselves to fit the<br/>new environment.9 This is the role of despair—it causes us<br/>to fall apart. In the darkness, we lose all sense of meaning,<br/>and this is always an extremely painful and isolating<br/>experience. But then, with timing not of our choosing, we<br/>find we have come out of the dark, able to once again find<br/>meaning and purpose for our lives. I’ve asked many people<br/>how they feel once they have passed through a dark<br/>night. They report, and this is my experience also, that<br/>they feel stronger and more confident. Having passed<br/>through the refiner’s fire, they trust themselves to deal<br/>with whatever life challenges them with next.</p>
<p>We need to feel despair that we cannot change the world.<br/>It is appropriate and essential that we do so. And we need<br/>to enter into the darkness, because it is the entry point for<br/>transformation. From my own experience with dark nights,<br/>I know that energy, strength and confidence become available<br/>the other side of despair. Having personally made this<br/>journey many times, abandoning my savior tendencies, I<br/>am eager for you to discover this place as well. It saddens<br/>me to see how many are still locked down by the belief<br/>that if they just work a little harder, if they just collaborate<br/>better or build a bigger network, if they just develop a new<br/>approach, they’ll turn the world around. Can we please<br/>abandon these self-destructive beliefs? Can we have faith<br/>that capacity, strength and delight are available to us the<br/>other side of darkness? (pp.34-35)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I am also mindful of some of Wheatley's introductory statements about the way in which she intends this book to be used:</p>
<blockquote><p>This book cannot serve you if you skim, scan, scroll, or flip<br/>through its pages hunting for a few good ideas.</p>
<p>This book intends to provoke and disturb, to console and<br/>affirm you. These strong responses require time and reflection.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Perhaps then, these excerpts are not the best way to share Wheatley's ideas and I should simply suggest you <a href="http://margaretwheatley.com/books.html" target="_blank">buy the book</a>?! </p>