How to respond to misuse of NVC? - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T13:10:07Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/how-to-respond-to-misuse-of-nvc?feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks, Kelly. That's a good…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-24:6451976:Comment:268012012-06-24T21:28:01.606ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>Thanks, Kelly. That's a good resource for people involved in business or relationships, particularly for those involved with hierarchical working or living situations they cannot or do not wish to escape. Communications is key, so I don't think Susan Campbell would recommend anything for situations where police in riot gear are listening to orders over their headsets or radios and are unable to communicate with protesters.</p>
<p>Thanks, Kelly. That's a good resource for people involved in business or relationships, particularly for those involved with hierarchical working or living situations they cannot or do not wish to escape. Communications is key, so I don't think Susan Campbell would recommend anything for situations where police in riot gear are listening to orders over their headsets or radios and are unable to communicate with protesters.</p> I'm glad I was able to offer…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-24:6451976:Comment:264972012-06-24T19:40:46.191ZKellyAngelPdxhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/KellyAngelPdx
<p>I'm glad I was able to offer you a useful tool and want to reiterate that NVC does have value as well as contribute to the menu of other communication models and tools.</p>
<p>I particularly like Susan Campbell's work. I have her book Saying What's Real, and wish her model was as popular as NVC so that I had local options for practice groups/classes etc.</p>
<p>See her 10 Truth skills & seven keys to communication at susancampbell.com</p>
<p>I like the personal responsibility her…</p>
<p>I'm glad I was able to offer you a useful tool and want to reiterate that NVC does have value as well as contribute to the menu of other communication models and tools.</p>
<p>I particularly like Susan Campbell's work. I have her book Saying What's Real, and wish her model was as popular as NVC so that I had local options for practice groups/classes etc.</p>
<p>See her 10 Truth skills & seven keys to communication at susancampbell.com</p>
<p>I like the personal responsibility her methods embrace, and the focus on honesty, couched in consciousness and compassion. I do not know what she would advise in regard to figuring out how Occupy protesters should get along with the cops.</p>
<p></p> Thanks, Kelly.
"Don't pop-psy…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-24:6451976:Comment:266222012-06-24T19:27:02.200ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>Thanks, Kelly.</p>
<p>"Don't pop-psych me!" I love it!</p>
<p>If I say something people don't agree with, I'd much prefer them to state their reasons for disagreement than to start to analyze me. It's like they're saying, "I don't agree with you and I don't have any rational reasons for disagreeing, but I have to assume that there's something wrong with you for saying something that I disagree with, so let's analyze what's wrong with you for saying something I disagree with."</p>
<p>I'm…</p>
<p>Thanks, Kelly.</p>
<p>"Don't pop-psych me!" I love it!</p>
<p>If I say something people don't agree with, I'd much prefer them to state their reasons for disagreement than to start to analyze me. It's like they're saying, "I don't agree with you and I don't have any rational reasons for disagreeing, but I have to assume that there's something wrong with you for saying something that I disagree with, so let's analyze what's wrong with you for saying something I disagree with."</p>
<p>I'm going to borrow your brilliant response when you were ten, Kelly, and the next time somebody tries to analyze me because they disagree with something I say, that's what I'll tell them, "Don't pop-psych me." Thank you. You're the first and only person to come up with an answer to the question I asked in starting this topic--how to respond to misuse of NVC.</p>
<p></p> Hello,
This topic may be old…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-24:6451976:Comment:266182012-06-24T18:50:27.608ZKellyAngelPdxhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/KellyAngelPdx
<p>Hello,</p>
<p>This topic may be old news, but i've just looked over the dialogue. </p>
<p>I'd like to note I've seen Marshall speak, read a few books, attended a number of classes and practice sessions and see the value of NVC, in terms of focus on empathy & creating connection to self and others. </p>
<p>(wanting to be clear I am quite familiar butI am not an expert by any means),</p>
<p>I also want to say I've seen and interpreted it as not working or not being effective in many…</p>
<p>Hello,</p>
<p>This topic may be old news, but i've just looked over the dialogue. </p>
<p>I'd like to note I've seen Marshall speak, read a few books, attended a number of classes and practice sessions and see the value of NVC, in terms of focus on empathy & creating connection to self and others. </p>
<p>(wanting to be clear I am quite familiar butI am not an expert by any means),</p>
<p>I also want to say I've seen and interpreted it as not working or not being effective in many contexts, so I am not a cheerleader for it in every case. (This is a total understatement, BTW)</p>
<p>I think the purpose of NVC is something along the lines of having more conciousness in communication, and being more in touch with feelings and needs in a belief that this focus will naturally help us communicate better and find solutions. Laudable & very useful to some extent...</p>
<p>But I've also seen it not be a fit, and empathize with Mark's concern that it be offered as a solution/fix all . It appears to me there is so much NVC Missionary Zeal, if you get my drift, and I don't tend to like that approach as it assume that the missionary sees himself as right or having the answer. I believe the purpose I as I understand it has value, but that NVC is just one framing for that purpose.</p>
<p>I have felt personally challenged when it seems like using the NVC mode has resulted in choosing to focus on the underlining feelings and needs at the expense of the content of an issue. Those underlying needs & feelings are important for consideration but sometimes it seems like a hijacking of an agenda to go off into that mode, kind of like the example Mark posited regarding the workshop topic & the one participant. I've seen that happen, and I've judged it as a kind of attention grabbing strategy on the part of the interrupter, and as a kind of co-dependent, lack of boundaries & respect for group needs on the part of a facilitator. <br/><br/></p>
<p>In the circumstances I've mentioned above, i've mostly chosen to try to see the situation as an opportunity to develop patience and listening, or to prioritize my need for efficiency and other goals & sometimes just get the heck out of dodge if I do not feel open heartedly compassionate (i.e. give myself empathy & take responsibility for meeting my own needs.</p>
<p><br/>I also have to say NVC lingo often comes across as very condecending, and there seem to be far more example of people awkwardly and ineffectively trying to check in with me about their observation/guessingfeelings and connecting to needs/formulting requests in a manner that feels inauthentic and frustrating. I believe I was 10 years old when I first told an adult "don't Pop-Psych Me", and I frequently feel NVC interactions I witness are just another version of that.</p>
<p>It also to me seems to have many signifiers & assumptions and What is appropriate/modelled for NVC of what I'd like to call (for lack of a better label) dominant/white culture. </p>
<p>I know saying that is a bit of a conversational bombshell/potentially triggering, so i won't complicate this post further other than to summarize by saying I am not convinced NVC delivers all that the sales pitch offers, if you will, particularly when it hits the ground, in the real world of activism and politics, with the many agendas and skill sets and power imbalances present. Take what you want from this, I welcome dialogue on any aspect, don't expect all my points to be responded to, and am not in need of heavy handed attempts at blanket validation (another thing I see lots of of in NVC).</p>
<p>In empathy,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Kelly</p>
<p></p> I don't doubt that some Occu…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-05:6451976:Comment:258232012-06-05T06:53:39.604ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
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<p>I don't doubt that some Occupiers may have interacted with some police officers from an NVC consciousness with good results. There are times when the police are not under orders to act violently, and at such times, some of them may be willing to interact pleasantly. When I speak of police brutality, I'm referring to phalanxes of officers in riot gear, acting under orders not to allow anyone to remain in their path unharmed. In other words, by police brutality against Occupiers, I do…</p>
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<p>I don't doubt that some Occupiers may have interacted with some police officers from an NVC consciousness with good results. There are times when the police are not under orders to act violently, and at such times, some of them may be willing to interact pleasantly. When I speak of police brutality, I'm referring to phalanxes of officers in riot gear, acting under orders not to allow anyone to remain in their path unharmed. In other words, by police brutality against Occupiers, I do not mean one or a few cowboy cops, I mean organized riot squads with crowd control weapons acting under orders from Homeland Security to clear an area of Occupiers and to use force to instill fear whenever possible. </p>
<p>As for helping people connect, I'm sure that NVC is much better than the average dating website. I'm glad that neither Suzanne nor anyone Suzanne has worked with has presented NVC to Occupy as a tool for resolving the conflict with the police, but neither, apparently, has anyone come out and stated clearly that it is not such a tool, so widespread misunderstandings have been allowed to occur and have gone, at least to my knowledge up to this point, unchallenged.</p>
<p>I do place a high value on NVC in situations where it is appropriate and I'm very glad to hear that Suzanne doesn't feel harmed by this discussion.</p>
<p>--Mark</p>
<p> </p>
<p></p> Hi Mark,
I am glad to hear of…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-05:6451976:Comment:257252012-06-05T06:04:17.945ZSuzanne Joneshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/SuzanneJones
<p>Hi Mark,</p>
<p>I am glad to hear of your appreciation for my willingness to engage with you for the time I felt able and willing. I appreciate that you were willing to consider my needs as much as you were willing and able.</p>
<p>I would like to respond briefly to some of our comments. I want to be sure to let you know before I leave that I share your concern that occupiers not be subjected to police brutality. I heard some stories from occupiers who interacted with police from an NVC…</p>
<p>Hi Mark,</p>
<p>I am glad to hear of your appreciation for my willingness to engage with you for the time I felt able and willing. I appreciate that you were willing to consider my needs as much as you were willing and able.</p>
<p>I would like to respond briefly to some of our comments. I want to be sure to let you know before I leave that I share your concern that occupiers not be subjected to police brutality. I heard some stories from occupiers who interacted with police from an NVC consciousness and had good results, but I (and no one I have worked with since last October) presented NVC to occupiers as a conflict resolution tool. I regret hearing that some people may have presented it in that light. I don't see NVC as a panacea for all the world's problems, but I do place a high value on it because I've seen it consistently work to help people connect in more situations than anything I've ever seen. I'm glad to read that you also see some value in it, generally speaking.</p>
<p>I am moved by your concern for my well being and want to let you know that I'm not leaving believing I have been harmed by our conversations. Since I'm reading that you don't have any issue with my disengaging, I will go ahead and do that and put my attention elsewhere from here on out.</p>
<p>Good luck with your work,</p>
<p>Suzanne </p> I didn't send you any emails,…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-05:6451976:Comment:258222012-06-05T03:35:20.266ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>I didn't send you any emails, Suzanne. Nor would I. Perhaps you meant my comments in this thread?</p>
<p>You are correct. I don't think NVC is effective in certain types of situations, I do think that NVC is sometimes misused, and I don't think it should have been introduced to Occupy as a conflict resolution tool to use when interacting with the police.</p>
<p>It would work if you could get all parties to communicate out of NVC consciousness and to refrain from evaluating other people's…</p>
<p>I didn't send you any emails, Suzanne. Nor would I. Perhaps you meant my comments in this thread?</p>
<p>You are correct. I don't think NVC is effective in certain types of situations, I do think that NVC is sometimes misused, and I don't think it should have been introduced to Occupy as a conflict resolution tool to use when interacting with the police.</p>
<p>It would work if you could get all parties to communicate out of NVC consciousness and to refrain from evaluating other people's ideas and actions. Obviously the police are not going to stop evaluating Occupy's ideas and actions, so NVC won't work in that situation. Unfortunately, a lot of what goes on here at Occupy Cafe seems, at least to me, to be about evaluating ideas and actions, both our own and those of others. Even Jitendra, and I don't think I've ever encountered a more nonviolent communicator, frequently appears to evaluate ideas and actions as a way of considering whether we're on a good path and should continue, or if we need to explore other directions. </p>
<p>As to how I feel about you leaving, I don't try to control people or tell them what to do or how to think and act. I think you're the world's most qualified expert on what you want to do. I didn't expect you to continue to engage, or to allow anyone to question whether or not NVC is an effective tool for resolving the conflict between Occupy or the police, and, indeed, I expect you and all other NVC practitioners within Occupy to keep offering NVC as such a tool when you know that it isn't. My purpose was never to tell you what you already know, but to bring to the attention of Occupiers something many of us may not have known, which is that NVC is not a tool for resolving the conflict between Occupiers and police, was not designed or intended to be such a tool, and that trying to use it that way can lead to increasing rather than decreasing police violence.</p>
<p>In this discussion, in order to illustrate the problem, I deliberately took on the role of a party that would not be controlled, understanding fully that by doing so I was thwarting rather than meeting your need to present NVC as a panacea for all the world's ills. I apologize for any psychic harm or discomfort that may have caused you, Suzanne, but I did it to try to save Occupiers from the inevitable and increasing police brutality we'll encounter if we mistakenly try to use NVC as a tool for resolving that conflict.</p>
<p>Thank you for engaging to the extent that you did, even though it was a genuine sacrifice and hardship for you. Although you won't state openly that in situations where the NVC mediator cannot get one of the parties to a conflict to agree to learn and practice NVC it cannot resolve the conflict, you've demonstrated it clearly by expressing your desire to withdraw. I wish you only the best, but I also wish Occupy the best, which includes finding effective tools to resolve the conflict between Occupiers and law enforcement. I'm sure that NVC will go a great way towards resolving conflicts within the Occupy movement itself, and I hope that NVC practitioners will eventually consider stating clearly that NVC is not a tool for resolving the conflict between Occupiers and the police, so as to prevent any misunderstandings and avoid unnecessary harm.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p> Hi Mark,
I am able to respond…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-05:6451976:Comment:257232012-06-05T02:08:39.891ZSuzanne Joneshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/SuzanneJones
<p>Hi Mark,</p>
<p>I am able to respond to your earlier than I thought I would be able to. I also read your posts in response to my response to Ben about NVC not being created as a conflict resolution tool. </p>
<p>I'm not actually going to be responding to your e-mails, but I want to let you know that I am no longer willing to engage with you for two reasos. As mentioned before, I don't have the time and energy to respond to e-mails with numerous paragraphs and numerous points. You seemed…</p>
<p>Hi Mark,</p>
<p>I am able to respond to your earlier than I thought I would be able to. I also read your posts in response to my response to Ben about NVC not being created as a conflict resolution tool. </p>
<p>I'm not actually going to be responding to your e-mails, but I want to let you know that I am no longer willing to engage with you for two reasos. As mentioned before, I don't have the time and energy to respond to e-mails with numerous paragraphs and numerous points. You seemed willing to slow down but then, seemingly, changed your mind considering the length of the last two e-mails you sent to my response to Ben. Also, I no longer believe that you really do want to know about NVC. I believe that what you want is to make the point that you don't believe NVC is effective in many situations, that you don't believe NVC practitioners should have introduced NVC to occupiers as a conflict resolution tool, and that you believe people often misuse NVC and you don't think they should.And, I hear you about all that. </p>
<p>I have very limited energy right now and want to spend my time engaged with people who are interested in communicating out of the consciousness that NVC stems from (the goal being connection which is best reached by refraining from evaluating one another's ideas and action). That is my strategy about how to contribute to a world in which everyone gets at least their basic needs met and this happens in a peaceful, respectful, compassionate way.</p>
<p>I get it that you don't agree with my strategy. I appreciate your efforts in trying to stay engaged with me, and regret that my energy is too low at this time to stay in contact. I would like to hear how you feel about my decision and my reasons for disengaging. What I'm asking for is your feelings, rather than any further opinions of me, my strategies, or my choices. I'm not making a unilateral decision to leave. I would like to leave, but as I've said before everything, for me, is a negotiation.</p>
<p>Suzanne</p>
<p> </p> I see that I didn't respond f…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-03:6451976:Comment:255542012-06-03T11:22:22.863ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>I see that I didn't respond fully to one of Suzanne's paragraphs.</p>
<p>Suzanne wrote, "Conflict is usually about – my/our needs are more important, moral, or imperative than yours, or why aren’t you helping me get my needs met, or why are you standing in the way of me getting my needs met, and why have you done what you’ve done to get your needs met at my/our expense, and now I/we are going to punish you for what you've done, and if you punish us, then you can be sure we'll punish…</p>
<p>I see that I didn't respond fully to one of Suzanne's paragraphs.</p>
<p>Suzanne wrote, "Conflict is usually about – my/our needs are more important, moral, or imperative than yours, or why aren’t you helping me get my needs met, or why are you standing in the way of me getting my needs met, and why have you done what you’ve done to get your needs met at my/our expense, and now I/we are going to punish you for what you've done, and if you punish us, then you can be sure we'll punish you. So, because NVC so thoroughly addresses this issue of needs, it helps resolve conflicts."</p>
<p>Do you believe that the police who brutalize Occupiers have needs that Occupiers aren't meeting? When asked, police have often informed Occupiers that they were just doing their jobs and obeying orders. Some have even said that they didn't know why they were there, they were just ordered to be there. That is not a situation in which their needs are not being met. Institutionalized violence is not based on individual or personal needs.</p>
<p>The idea that police are punishing us as Occupiers for getting our needs met at their expense, and that they can be sure that if they punish us, we'll punish them, is complete and utter nonsense. That may be what other conflicts are usually about, but it isn't what this specific conflict is about.</p>
<p>You can't have it both ways. Either NVC can be used as a tool to resolve the violent conflict between Occupy and the police, or it cannot. If it can, it is important to explain how to use it for that purpose. If it cannot, it is vital to explain that it cannot be used for that purpose and that attempting to use it for a purpose for which it was not designed is likely to increase the violence by allowing the police to be sure that no matter how much they punish Occupiers, Occupiers will never punish them in return.</p>
<p>If the situation was one in which the police were being violent because their needs were not being met, Occupiers could resolve the conflict by meeting the needs of the police. That has been tried many times and it doesn't work because the police are not acting violently out of any perception that their needs are not being met, they are just doing their jobs. An example would be the police telling a group of Occupiers, "We need you to clear this sidewalk." The Occupiers obediently clear the sidewalk, but the police kettle them anyway, pepper spray them, beat some of them, and arrest many of them. The police have also been known to tell Occupiers, "We need you to leave this area," but not allow anyone to leave the area. If they had a need for people to leave the area, they would allow people to leave.</p>
<p>I apologize for the length of this comment, but this is something that needs to be clarified, not glossed over with confusing and contradictory statements. I personally know many Occupiers who still believe that NVC is being taught to them as a tool with which they can resolve the conflict between Occupiers and the police. I'd thought that we'd determined that NVC was not being offered as such a tool, but the paragraph I'm responding to here seems to say that it is.</p>
<p>I need to be absolutely clear on this, Suzanne. Are you saying that you are teaching NVC to Occupiers as a tool we can use to resolve the conflict between Occupy and the police, or are you saying that NVC was not intended to be used that way and isn't being offered for that purpose? </p>
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<p></p> "What we've got here is (a)…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-06-03:6451976:Comment:252972012-06-03T07:42:39.607ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
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<p>"What we've got here is (a) failure to communicate." --Cool Hand Luke</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p>"What we've got here is (a) failure to communicate." --Cool Hand Luke</p>
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