Let's Get the Problem Definition Right. - Occupy Cafe2024-03-28T22:14:40Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/let-s-get-the-problem-definition-right-show-me-what-i-don-t-see?groupUrl=occupy-2-0-inner-transformation-and-outer-systems&commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A20707&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI'd like to suggest the follo…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-01-06:6451976:Comment:207072012-01-06T23:55:48.167ZNDThttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/NDT
<p>I'd like to suggest the following be incorporated into the problem definition:</p>
<p>"The system which binds people economically looks to the concrete rather than the intangible, and to the physical rather than to the intent."</p>
<p>This binding can be expressed through the misuse of language: words like "person" and "allow" have been twisted in meaning to such an extent that that they now represent entirely different things from those with which they were originally associated. The word…</p>
<p>I'd like to suggest the following be incorporated into the problem definition:</p>
<p>"The system which binds people economically looks to the concrete rather than the intangible, and to the physical rather than to the intent."</p>
<p>This binding can be expressed through the misuse of language: words like "person" and "allow" have been twisted in meaning to such an extent that that they now represent entirely different things from those with which they were originally associated. The word "person" originally meant mask; a person was a physical representation and had nothing to do with the intangible nature of the individual who "wore" the person. This meaning is still evident in English when someone refers to their person as being their body and clothing. Likewise, the meaning of the word "allow" has been expanded from meaning "to give permission" to include "to cause" and "to enable".</p>
<p>The binding is an aspect of civil law, which is based on Roman law (as will-to-power), which in turn is based on the law of the hunter.</p>
<p></p> There are definitely healthy…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-16:6451976:Comment:179462011-12-16T17:56:49.281ZDavid MacLeodhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidMacLeod
<p>There are definitely healthy and unhealthy expressions of "thinking globally." David Holmgren has expressed thoughts similar to yours Jitendra. He has written, "Top-down thinking, bottom-up action is a restatement in systems terms of the environmental slogan 'think globally, act locally.'</p>
<blockquote><p>Holmgren writes: "What constitutes bottom-up and top-down depends, in part, on your perspective. For many people, the broad environment movement is a bottom-up grassroots movement, but…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There are definitely healthy and unhealthy expressions of "thinking globally." David Holmgren has expressed thoughts similar to yours Jitendra. He has written, "Top-down thinking, bottom-up action is a restatement in systems terms of the environmental slogan 'think globally, act locally.'</p>
<blockquote><p>Holmgren writes: "What constitutes bottom-up and top-down depends, in part, on your perspective. For many people, the broad environment movement is a bottom-up grassroots movement, but the majority of the movement's activities are focused on changing the behavior of government, bureaucracy, corporations and the media. More fundamental bottom-up strategies start with the self and develop by example and replication, moving towards mass change.</p>
<p>...[Permaculture] is concerned with facilitating individuals, households and local communities in increasing self-reliance and self-regulation. I see this process as the most potent way of reducing total environmental impact and transforming society by slowing and reorganizing the production-consumption cycle. This approach is based on the recognition that a certain proportion of society is ready, willing and (most importantly) able to substantially change their own behavior if they think it is possible and significant. This socially and environmentally motivated minority represents a leverage point for large-scale change.</p>
<p>...bottom-up collaborative behavior is a fundamental element of permaculture action, whether it is in the garden or the community and this behavior is informed by wholistic systemic understanding which can be characterized as top-down. Thus, 'top-down thinking, bottom-up action' is a restatement in systems terms of the environmental slogan 'think globally, act locally.'"</p>
</blockquote>
<p><br/>The above from <a href="http://www.permacultureprinciples.com/resources_principles.php" target="_blank">Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability</a></p> There was no meaningful assum…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-12:6451976:Comment:173222011-12-12T11:32:38.841ZPawel Klewinhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/PawelKlewin
<div class="description xj_comment_editor xg_user_generated" id="desc_6451976Comment17188"><p>There was no meaningful assumption to my post.</p>
<p>In the context of this discussion I have just seen the opportunity to put a stick into the anthill (now I would rather say to stir the pool.) - that was all.</p>
<p>The result exceeds by far my expectations. Never before in my over 3 years old history of social networking I succeeded to provoke an answer so in line with my thinking.</p>
<p>It…</p>
</div>
<div class="description xj_comment_editor xg_user_generated" id="desc_6451976Comment17188"><p>There was no meaningful assumption to my post.</p>
<p>In the context of this discussion I have just seen the opportunity to put a stick into the anthill (now I would rather say to stir the pool.) - that was all.</p>
<p>The result exceeds by far my expectations. Never before in my over 3 years old history of social networking I succeeded to provoke an answer so in line with my thinking.</p>
<p>It certainly deserves appropriate and meaningful reply, including my real assumptions in coherent form. For the time being you must not waste your time to create a glossary - as a non native speaker I consulted wiktionary to be sure of correct understanding and every concept in your post fits.</p>
<p>I think what we need is definition of the problem <-> appropriate context -> problem understanding = solution. May such vision justify my intention?</p>
<p>I can't put velocity over quality :-) composing my answer, neither, like you, have I excess time on my hands. I nevertheless hope it will not take more than 48 hours.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</div> "This again is clearly demons…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-12:6451976:Comment:167882011-12-12T08:16:49.092ZJitendra Darlinghttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JitendraDarling
<p>"This again is clearly demonstrated by Jittendra comment, addressing locality, action, globalization, but confusing information flows with thinking and avoiding this way the issue of thought and thinking."</p>
<p>Fascinating assumption. I find that the confluence of two uniquely assembled thought streams can enjoy quite a bit of turbulence before they settle into a deep running pool capable of actual reflection without distortion.</p>
<p>Amusing is noticing how two perspectives can hold the…</p>
<p>"This again is clearly demonstrated by Jittendra comment, addressing locality, action, globalization, but confusing information flows with thinking and avoiding this way the issue of thought and thinking."</p>
<p>Fascinating assumption. I find that the confluence of two uniquely assembled thought streams can enjoy quite a bit of turbulence before they settle into a deep running pool capable of actual reflection without distortion.</p>
<p>Amusing is noticing how two perspectives can hold the same assessment on one another. Herein lies the rub of consensual process. How many arguments do you suppose have run their course whilst unwittingly butting and defending similar stands?</p>
<p>First order of business, had I excess time on my hands, would be to create a glossary so as to define my terms and attendant perspective—and I'd have yours, of course. </p>
<p></p> "Are we the power external to…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-12:6451976:Comment:173172011-12-12T08:00:56.259ZJitendra Darlinghttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JitendraDarling
<p>"Are we the power external to all systems around us, or are we/species and we/individuals the element of the planetary subsystem and through it interdependent with the universal system?" </p>
<p>I would say simply, "Yes." One of the most fascinating of dual human dynamics in play is our "urge to merge", our yearning to recover the experience of our Oneness while we simultaneously remain devoted to our archetypal evolutionary urge to individuate.</p>
<p>"Or' leaves us on one shore of the…</p>
<p>"Are we the power external to all systems around us, or are we/species and we/individuals the element of the planetary subsystem and through it interdependent with the universal system?" </p>
<p>I would say simply, "Yes." One of the most fascinating of dual human dynamics in play is our "urge to merge", our yearning to recover the experience of our Oneness while we simultaneously remain devoted to our archetypal evolutionary urge to individuate.</p>
<p>"Or' leaves us on one shore of the river or the other with, of course, two completely valid experiences. However, the stream of Life runs between the two.</p> I remain both/and with global…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-12:6451976:Comment:171862011-12-12T07:49:47.293ZJitendra Darlinghttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JitendraDarling
<p>I remain both/and with global/local given the context I now understand from you, David. There are ways in which local relationships of commerce and exchange are vital to sound living in healthy, thriving communities. </p>
<p>There are ways in which the wholeness, interdependence and interconnectivity of our current global nature can actually insure a common bond to care for our global community as we care for ourselves. True, there are countless ways in which lower tier consciousness…</p>
<p>I remain both/and with global/local given the context I now understand from you, David. There are ways in which local relationships of commerce and exchange are vital to sound living in healthy, thriving communities. </p>
<p>There are ways in which the wholeness, interdependence and interconnectivity of our current global nature can actually insure a common bond to care for our global community as we care for ourselves. True, there are countless ways in which lower tier consciousness exploits i</p>
<p>As technology progresses so our sense of community and self expand, as it ought to. In its higher realization, global awareness and exchange has the capacity and potential to breed a thriving global organism—individuated, interdependent loci of human brilliance and resource.</p>
<p>There are ways in which globalization can be a disease, only because of the consciousness implementing it. Through heart-centered [compassionate/caring/good for all] applications of world-around [Bucky's term] connection, we can thrive and enjoy our diversely expressed existence.</p>
<p>Again, I revert to the assertion that consciousness itself, drives the fundamental success or failure of any given system large or small, global or local.</p> "The freedom of choice does n…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-10:6451976:Comment:171352011-12-10T00:21:08.287ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<p>"The freedom of choice does not concern one’s identity."</p>
<p>I agree (with you?) that identity is a given. In this culture, identity is something to discover, as socialization in almost all cases succeeds in making it a mystery. I believe it can be further developed, also.</p>
<p>To explore/seek is the choice.</p>
<p>"The freedom of choice does not concern one’s identity."</p>
<p>I agree (with you?) that identity is a given. In this culture, identity is something to discover, as socialization in almost all cases succeeds in making it a mystery. I believe it can be further developed, also.</p>
<p>To explore/seek is the choice.</p> I take it that you see two p…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-08:6451976:Comment:169442011-12-08T20:42:13.648ZPawel Klewinhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/PawelKlewin
<p><i><br></br></i></p>
<blockquote><p><i>I take it that you see two possible ways to proceed together (all in this group, if not all on this site):</i></p>
<ul>
<li><i>discuss the source of our power</i></li>
<li><i>discuss the systemic mechanism which has created the problem</i></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p><i> </i>IMHO there is a substantial difference – the source of our power is (and will be in predictable future) unknown, can be only a subject of beliefs. Contrary the systemic mechanism which…</p>
<p><i><br/></i></p>
<blockquote><p><i>I take it that you see two possible ways to proceed together (all in this group, if not all on this site):</i></p>
<ul>
<li><i>discuss the source of our power</i></li>
<li><i>discuss the systemic mechanism which has created the problem</i></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p><i> </i>IMHO there is a substantial difference – the source of our power is (and will be in predictable future) unknown, can be only a subject of beliefs. Contrary the systemic mechanism which has created the problem - it can be identified, described and modeled upon objective knowledge.</p>
<blockquote><p><i>I believe we can change the way we think from reactive to responsible, from narrow to comprehensive, from routine to non-routine, from analytic to synthetic. We can choose to use different assumptions….</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p><i> </i>I share your belief, but experience of last 50 years (including social network web discussions – last 10 years) demonstrates clearly it is not as easy as Covey presents it. The way we think, the fundamental assumptions, are determined by our systemic identity and have been co-evolving with our culture and tribal social structure since the rise of consciousness. The freedom of choice does not concern one’s identity. We should also consider the inertia of the culture development process.</p>
<blockquote><p><i>Those seem to be rhetorical questions. Are they?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, they all are. My intention has been to put a stick into the ant-hill. <em>The thought is a liar</em> – I agree with Doreen. We should start the process of change – instead I observe that thinking is a kind of taboo as subject of café discussions. </p>
<p>This again is clearly demonstrated by Jittendra comment, addressing locality, action, globalization, but confusing information flows with thinking and avoiding this way the issue of thought and thinking.</p>
<p>I do not know the answers; I did not expect anybody can immediately answer. I propose the discussion oriented at modeling the way we are motivated, the way we use our consciousness, the way we decide.</p>
<p>To avoid misunderstanding: the value of beliefs can’t be underestimated as the source of inspirations, intuitions and visionary thinking feeding into the potential discussion. The only limitation is that they must remain personal, while the “model of thinking” can address the core of global problem only if collectively created and becoming common.</p>
<p></p> "Do we discuss the source of…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-08:6451976:Comment:167152011-12-08T17:16:30.081ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<p>"Do we discuss the source of our power, or systemic mechanism which has created the problem?"</p>
<p>I take it that you see two possible ways to proceed together (all in this group, if not all on this site):</p>
<ul>
<li>discuss the source of our power</li>
<li>discuss the systemic mechanism which has created the problem</li>
</ul>
<p>Am I correct? Are these mutually exclusive, so that we must choose, or can some pursue one inquiry while others pursue the other one?</p>
<p>"Can we…</p>
<p>"Do we discuss the source of our power, or systemic mechanism which has created the problem?"</p>
<p>I take it that you see two possible ways to proceed together (all in this group, if not all on this site):</p>
<ul>
<li>discuss the source of our power</li>
<li>discuss the systemic mechanism which has created the problem</li>
</ul>
<p>Am I correct? Are these mutually exclusive, so that we must choose, or can some pursue one inquiry while others pursue the other one?</p>
<p>"Can we believe/hope the solution will 'emerge' without our conscious and collective effort? Can it 'emerge' from somewhere else than the proper definition of the source of the problem? Can the problem be simplified by reduction to the present moment (of universal evolution)?"</p>
<p>Those seem to be rhetorical questions. Are they?</p>
<p>"If '<i>the thought is a liar'</i> [Doreen] – can we change the way we think? Wouldn’t it be more realistic than the change of our systemic identity? What should be the role of our personal beliefs in the discussion?"</p>
<p>Focusing on the last part, I say yes. I believe we can change the way we think from reactive to responsible, from narrow to comprehensive, from routine to non-routine, from analytic to synthetic. We can choose to use different assumptions and different visions, for different beginnings and conclusions. I believe it is more realistic than going all the way with building an alternate life support system on planet earth, which is the logical conclusion of changing our systemic identity. That is why I offer two paradigms as most promising; they support a lot of change of thinking, enabling us to continue as earthlings.</p>
<p>We certainly will begin dialog with our beliefs. We may change or exchange them for others as we continue conversation, possibly having more and more of them in common as we proceed together.</p> Many good points blended with…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-08:6451976:Comment:170162011-12-08T13:57:14.045ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<p><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>Many good points blended with </span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>confessions</span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span> of living in this era. I confess a preoccupation of the coming era of energy…</span></font></font></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>Many good points blended with </span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>confessions</span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span> of living in this era. I confess a preoccupation of the coming era of energy descent.</span></font></font></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>You quoted/added: </span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>"'Beyond wishing the planet and humanity-at-large well, thinking globally distracts and disempowers one and all. I believe it is a fossil-fueled sort of </span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>hypnosis.' This is an interesting statement that I've read a few times, but not quite grokking." For most, it is not easy to suddenly move from what has been ordinary, including planet-wide interests, concerns and sense of responsibilities in common, to consideration of what is not ordinary, so please give these suggestions some time.</span></font></font></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>Unlike you, I reserve </span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>global</span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span> for one <insert term, such as</span></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><i><span>economy,</span></i></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><i><span>corporation</span></i></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>or</span></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><i><span>leadership</span></i></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>> applied to the whole planet. I use </span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>holistic</span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span> and </span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>comprehensive</span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span> in other contexts. Global/whole planet <insert term> is not associated with most of a human future, for at least two reasons: 1) more energy is needed for it to come into play and remain in play than will be affordable/available and 2) it becomes</span></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><i><span>totalitarian</span></i></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>by imposing sameness, by steadily reducing variety and diversity of lives and life-ways that emerged and coevolved in distinct regions.</span></font></font></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>Learning to inhabit (produce, consume and celebrate in) regions will require a new (to us) focus and a new (to us) intensity of focus. Knowing the status of other regions and their inhabitants will be a lower priority as we accept that we are responsible in/for our situations as they are in/for theirs.</span></font></font></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>Uncertainties abound! We can hope the change of eras is slow and orderly, and that the hardest jolts come last. We can make our own luck and best increase options by beginning comprehensive preparations for energy descent sooner rather than later. People can choose to do it together. This is what</span></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><i><span>No more dead time!</span></i></font></font></font> <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="1"><span>means, most of all, to me.</span></font></font></font></p>