Occupy 2.0 Inquiry Round 2: Nov. 22-28 - Occupy Cafe2024-03-28T08:58:12Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/occupy-2-0-inquiry-rd-2-nov-22-28?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A12904&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJoin Occupy Global (www.WEall…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-29:6451976:Comment:142352011-11-29T12:38:18.351Zaunitedworldhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/aunitedworld
<div><strong><span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">Join <a href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/global" target="_blank">Occupy Global</a></font></span></strong> (<a href="http://www.wealloccupy.info/" target="_blank">www.WEalloccupy.info</a>) <span style="font-size: medium;">by signing the 3 petitions to promote <a href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/club" target="_blank">100% collective consciousness</a> <font size="2">(…</font></span></div>
<div><strong><span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">Join <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/global">Occupy Global</a></font></span></strong> (<a target="_blank" href="http://www.wealloccupy.info/">www.WEalloccupy.info</a>) <span style="font-size: medium;">by signing the 3 petitions to promote <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/club">100% collective consciousness</a> <font size="2">(<a target="_blank" href="http://www.weare100percent.info/">www.WEare100percent.info</a>) </font>as a WE Party Peace Ambassador (volunteer online mentor)</span> <span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">-</font> <span style="font-size: medium;">Contact</span> <u><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><a target="_blank" href="mailto:aunitedworld@gmail.com"><font size="3">aunitedworld@gmail.com</font></a></span></span></u></span> <span style="font-size: medium;">and you may be included in future teleconferences.</span></div> A Suggestion for Your Conside…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-29:6451976:Comment:142342011-11-29T11:58:49.700ZKevin Parcellhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/KevinParcell
A Suggestion for Your Consideration:<br></br>
<br></br>
There is generally an assumption that the "specific purpose" of any movement must first be put forward. Recent research and recent history shows that this is a mistaken assumption.<br></br>
<br></br>
Instead, to accomplish any change the first step is to provide a forum where every individual has a voice, and the next step is to listen until everyone believes that everyone is heard. This is the basis of the success of the Arab Spring: the belief that…
A Suggestion for Your Consideration:<br/>
<br/>
There is generally an assumption that the "specific purpose" of any movement must first be put forward. Recent research and recent history shows that this is a mistaken assumption.<br/>
<br/>
Instead, to accomplish any change the first step is to provide a forum where every individual has a voice, and the next step is to listen until everyone believes that everyone is heard. This is the basis of the success of the Arab Spring: the belief that with democracy as a forum then every voice is heard.<br/>
<br/>
However, #Occupy is rooted in the wide belief among people in existing democratic states that the voice of the people has been usurped by a minority. In the U.S., for example, approval of the performance of Congress - the legislative branch of government - is at an all-time low of about 9%, which is 2% lower than support there for a communist government. <br/>
(<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2011/11/16/congress-approval-rating-porn-polygamy_n_1098497.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2011/11/16/congress-approva...</a>)<br/>
<br/>
And so, while the assertion of #Occupy that 99% of people support change has resonance, in fact almost as many people whom support change do not support any particular action other than to return power to the people by simply reclaiming their own voice in democratic government. This is probably why #Occupy grew rapidly as an expression of the rejection of any attempt by an individual or group to claim to speak for the people. In essence, #Occupy is an attempt at a forum where every voice might be equal. <br/>
<br/>
Consequently, if #Occupy now focuses on putting forward any specific demand other than being heard, or focuses on defining a direction other than genuinely representative democracy, then it will likely destroy itself. Thus, to prevent the splintering of #Occupy into factions with different specific goals, resulting in the disintegration of the genuine movement, it might be essential that this movement first focus on development of a platform that facilitates every voice being heard, and next that it listens - that we listen.<br/>
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One example of a universal platform that facilitates every voice being heard is the familiar tournament-style tiered structure, wherein small groups first meet to listen and then each sends a representative on to the next level to relay the ideas presented, etc, until finally one small group genuinely represents every voice. This final assembly might then propose actions that represent the collective voice of the participants, followed by every individual involved in the process voting on those actions.<br/>
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Any social network, such as Facebook, might effectively serve as that forum. It might not be unreasonable to suppose that Facebook is the best existing forum because it already has the broadest representation of the global population. However, perhaps a social network dedicated to serving as such a forum, such as Occupy Cafe, rather than an existing network that facilitates many unrelated groups, such as the commercial and "government" interests widely perceived to be among the usurpers of individual power, would be most effective because it would be less likely to engender dedicated opposition to it serving thusly.<br/>
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The structure of Ning networks (the generic platform used by Occupy Cafe) can easily host the tiered structure mentioned above because it would permit establishing a category of discussion for each tier and a separate discussion within each tier for each small discussion. This would also create a transparent and permanent record of all proceedings, and thus serve as a civil forum for all voices and a proof that every voice is heard. Suppose, Mr. Blue, that both…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-29:6451976:Comment:137982011-11-29T06:55:38.590ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p><br></br>Suppose, Mr. Blue, that both those Constitutional amendments survive all the obstacles and become Amendments to the Constitution. Corporations will no longer be considered to have the Constitutional rights of persons, and elections will be publicly funded.</p>
<p>So we have an election and you, Mr. Blue, happen to have turned out to be one of the most inspirational people in the Occupy movement, have spoken to wide acclaim at every Occupy site in the country, have made many videos which…</p>
<p><br/>Suppose, Mr. Blue, that both those Constitutional amendments survive all the obstacles and become Amendments to the Constitution. Corporations will no longer be considered to have the Constitutional rights of persons, and elections will be publicly funded.</p>
<p>So we have an election and you, Mr. Blue, happen to have turned out to be one of the most inspirational people in the Occupy movement, have spoken to wide acclaim at every Occupy site in the country, have made many videos which went viral, and have become a "household" word. So you run for President and garner a phenomenal 90% of the vote.<br/><br/>That could happen because you wouldn't need to be a millionaire or cater to the 1% to be able to run in publicly funded elections, and the corporations wouldn't be able to spend billions of dollars on prime time mass media to smear you. The results of the popular vote are announced, the country rejoices, and you start packing your bags to move to the White House.<br/><br/>Then the corporations put enormous economic pressure on the Electoral College and a majority of Electoral votes go for your opponent, who only got less than 10% of the vote. Okay, so we need, at a minimum, another Constitutional amendment to abolish the Electoral College. That's because the Constitution banned citizens from voting directly for President and Vice-President and said that only the Electoral College could do that. Of course it also said we couldn't vote for Senators, and that was changed, so the third Constitutional amendment is also possible. We get that passed and your 90% landslide can't be overturned by the Electoral College.<br/><br/>So now you breathe a sigh of relief and book a flight to Washington, D.C. But there's another problem now. Several places in the country had incidences of electoral fraud. Usually this would be ignored, as the powers that be would simply say that the fraud hadn't altered the results of the election. But this time the Supreme Court decides that the fraud violated the Equal Protection Clause (the one that was intended to protect blacks but was used by the Supreme Court in 2000 to disenfranchise blacks, and, incidentally, all other voters), and announces that you cannot be sworn into office until they have resolved the question of election fraud so as not to deprive citizens of the voting rights the Supreme Court says they don't have anyway. And the Supreme Court then finds that the fraud was so serious that they have no choice but to nullify the election and order that a new election be held.<br/><br/>Absurd? No more absurd than that corporations are people, money is speech, and that if the President does something, it is thereby legal. And that last part is the problem because now they certainly don't want Mr. Blue to have the power of a unitary President, as the things you might do might not please the 1%. So if we want your unprecedented 90% landslide to put you into the White House, we'd definitely need a fourth Constitutional amendment, either abolishing the Supreme Court, or at a minimum limiting their supreme power so that they couldn't override the popular vote.<br/><br/>Okay, if we can get two Constitutional amendments introduced, passed, and ratified, there's no reason we can't get four.<br/><br/>But then election officials all over the country start announcing that the central tabulators that counted the votes had been hacked, and had flipped the results, and that it was really your opponent who'd gotten the 90% vote and you'd only gotten 5%. Well, everyone knows that's impossible, but since there is no way to verify the audit logs of the central tabulators, because they can be hacked without leaving a trace for the forensic investigating techies to find, as impossible as everyone knows it is, we can't prove that it didn't happen. Since we've already either abolished the Supreme Court or limited their power so that they can't intervene in presidential elections, it would have to go to Congress. And if Congress happens to prefer your opponent, they aren't going to investigate, they'll just swear in your opponent, as happened with at least half a dozen Congressional elections in 2006.<br/><br/>Okay, so we get a 5th Constitutional Amendment, that takes electronic voting machines and central tabulators out of elections, the way that the German Supreme Court did, because they conceal the electoral process from the public and are therefore incompatible with democracy. If we can get 4 Constitutional amendments, a fifth isn't too much to ask.<br/><br/>Do you see where I'm going with this, Mr. Blue? It isn't five amendments that would be needed, or even fifty amendments--if we want the popular vote to be the final say, we'd need a new Constitution that vested power in the hands of the people, instead of in the hands of the government, so that the will of the people could not be ignored or overridden by the government.<br/><br/>Our Constitution was written by the 1%, to ensure that the 1%, those who owned the country, would always rule the country. Have you read the discussion on my website about our <a target="_blank" href="http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1085">counterrevolutionary Constitution</a>? Tragic as it might be, I suspect that you might find yourself agreeing with me again. ;)</p>
<p></p>
<p></p> Those are really well done an…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-29:6451976:Comment:141322011-11-29T05:07:10.598ZGisele Theriaulthttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/GiseleTheriault
<p>Those are really well done and I do think that a more targeted approach has a better chance of reaching people. Once they are brought into the movement they can learn more at their own pace, or not. There has to be room for everyone even if they aren't prepared to learn all about politics and lobbying etc.</p>
<p>Once people get that they are being robbed, they will fight back, especially Americans. Once middle-class Americans realize who has really be robbing them blind, watch out.</p>
<p>Those are really well done and I do think that a more targeted approach has a better chance of reaching people. Once they are brought into the movement they can learn more at their own pace, or not. There has to be room for everyone even if they aren't prepared to learn all about politics and lobbying etc.</p>
<p>Once people get that they are being robbed, they will fight back, especially Americans. Once middle-class Americans realize who has really be robbing them blind, watch out.</p> For once, I've got to agree w…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-28:6451976:Comment:139662011-11-28T19:01:50.997ZMr. Bluehttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MrBlue
<p>For once, I've got to agree with Mark.</p>
<p>This law will never work because it will be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The only cure is a constitutional amendment which will 1) eliminate corporate personhood in ALL it's manifestations and 2) make public elections publicly funded.</p>
<p>For once, I've got to agree with Mark.</p>
<p>This law will never work because it will be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The only cure is a constitutional amendment which will 1) eliminate corporate personhood in ALL it's manifestations and 2) make public elections publicly funded.</p> Let's reach 100%
Join Occupy…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-28:6451976:Comment:138822011-11-28T13:06:21.538Zaunitedworldhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/aunitedworld
<div><strong><span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">Let's reach 100%</font></span></strong></div>
<div><strong><span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">Join <a href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/global" target="_blank">Occupy Global</a></font></span></strong> (<a href="http://www.wealloccupy.info/" target="_blank">www.WEalloccupy.info</a>) <span style="font-size: medium;">by signing the 3 petitions to promote <a href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/club" target="_blank">100%…</a></span></div>
<div><strong><span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">Let's reach 100%</font></span></strong></div>
<div><strong><span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">Join <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/global">Occupy Global</a></font></span></strong> (<a target="_blank" href="http://www.wealloccupy.info/">www.WEalloccupy.info</a>) <span style="font-size: medium;">by signing the 3 petitions to promote <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aunitedworld.net/club">100% collective consciousness</a> <font size="2">(<a target="_blank" href="http://www.weare100percent.info/">www.WEare100percent.info</a>) </font>as a WE Party Peace Ambassador (volunteer online mentor)</span> <span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="3">-</font> <span style="font-size: medium;">Contact</span> <u><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><a target="_blank" href="mailto:aunitedworld@gmail.com"><font size="3">aunitedworld@gmail.com</font></a></span></span></u></span> <span style="font-size: medium;">and you may be included in future teleconferences.</span></div> Join Occupy Global (www.WEall…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-28:6451976:Comment:138812011-11-28T11:55:21.690Zaunitedworldhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/aunitedworld
<p><font size="4">Join Occupy Global (<a target="_blank" href="http://www.wealloccupy.info/">www.WEalloccupy.info</a>) - Contact <a target="_blank" href="mailto:aunitedworld@gmail.com">aunitedworld@gmail.com</a> to be included in future teleconferences</font><br clear="all"/></p>
<p><font size="4">Join Occupy Global (<a target="_blank" href="http://www.wealloccupy.info/">www.WEalloccupy.info</a>) - Contact <a target="_blank" href="mailto:aunitedworld@gmail.com">aunitedworld@gmail.com</a> to be included in future teleconferences</font><br clear="all"/></p> I'm heartened by all of these…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-28:6451976:Comment:138762011-11-28T11:04:34.399ZKevin Parcellhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/KevinParcell
I'm heartened by all of these efforts to express a collective will. To avoid splintering between and within different groups, and to include the thoughts of the 98% not on the ground, I think we need a process that offers to listen to every voice. Until everyone believes that everyone can be heard, real change might be impossible.
I'm heartened by all of these efforts to express a collective will. To avoid splintering between and within different groups, and to include the thoughts of the 98% not on the ground, I think we need a process that offers to listen to every voice. Until everyone believes that everyone can be heard, real change might be impossible.
Thanks, Kevin. It is a reli…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-28:6451976:Comment:139482011-11-28T07:15:36.477ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks, Kevin. It is a relief to see a suggestion that doesn't involve delegating power to representatives.</p>
<p>Most things don't have to be decided nationally or globally. Anything that only effects neighborhoods, can be decided at the neighborhood level. </p>
<p>Of course we first have to get rid of the hierarchical government that taxes locally but makes decisions about spending that money in a centralized power structure.</p>
<p>Right now the General Assemblies of the various…</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks, Kevin. It is a relief to see a suggestion that doesn't involve delegating power to representatives.</p>
<p>Most things don't have to be decided nationally or globally. Anything that only effects neighborhoods, can be decided at the neighborhood level. </p>
<p>Of course we first have to get rid of the hierarchical government that taxes locally but makes decisions about spending that money in a centralized power structure.</p>
<p>Right now the General Assemblies of the various Occupy cities range from a handful of people to thousands of people. But each GA has the power to make proposals and consense on them, and to make their decisions known. </p>
<p>Here's a website that collects Tweets nationally and globally from Occupies and peace activists: <a href="http://blogsofwar.com/monitor/index_occupy.html" rel="nofollow">http://blogsofwar.com/monitor/index_occupy.html</a></p>
<p>I don't have to send a delegate to Egypt to find out what Egyptians are doing and saying, or to tell them what I think, because I follow many Egyptian revolutionaries on Twitter and can chat with them directly. So I usually know what has been decided in Tahrir Square without having to send a delegate there or them having to send a delegate here. If that can be done internationally, it probably can be done nationally.</p>
<p>But consensus has to be reached in open General Assemblies or gatherings, whether small or large, not online or behind closed doors. Once decisions are reached, we have the digital tools for communicating those decisions. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, many GAs have been led astray and have abandoned a true consensus process for a modified form of majority rule. I think (and hope) that this is just a temporary detour and will be remedied as time goes on. Most are afraid of small groups being able to block consensus. They see this as an insurmountable problem because they haven't yet learned how to engage blockers in finding creative alternatives that everyone can consense on. </p>
<p>The reason that individual blocks are necessary is best explained by the old joke that democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. It can only work if the lamb has a solid block, not just once, but every single time they vote on the menu. Eventually, the wolves, rather than starve, will agree to find an alternative entree, instead of continuing to insist on having lamb for dinner, but only if the lamb has that solid block which cannot be overridden by a majority. I know of dogs thriving on vegan diets, so I suspect that their close relatives, wolves, could do the same. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> Hi, Giselle.
You make a good…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-28:6451976:Comment:140232011-11-28T05:59:31.231ZMr. Bluehttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MrBlue
<p>Hi, Giselle.</p>
<p>You make a good point, that we need to reach more of the 99%. I think, however, that it is a losing battle to try to reach the people who are into the Kardashians. I hate to say it, but those people are sheep. We need to reach people who are reachable.</p>
<p>That said, I think there are a lot of people who are reachable. But you need at least a few short paragraphs. You can't distill what Occupy is about in a sound byte. It just isn't possible. That said, I have done a…</p>
<p>Hi, Giselle.</p>
<p>You make a good point, that we need to reach more of the 99%. I think, however, that it is a losing battle to try to reach the people who are into the Kardashians. I hate to say it, but those people are sheep. We need to reach people who are reachable.</p>
<p>That said, I think there are a lot of people who are reachable. But you need at least a few short paragraphs. You can't distill what Occupy is about in a sound byte. It just isn't possible. That said, I have done a lot of work putting together short flyers for disparate audiences that will fit four to a page. I will share them here. Use what you want and throw the rest away:</p>
<p>For the unemployed and newly poor:</p>
<p align="center"><b>DOWN BUT NOT OUT</b></p>
<p>Unemployed or underemployed? Neck deep in debt? Uninsured or underinsured? At risk for foreclosure? One illness away from bankruptcy? Kids living at home who can’t find jobs after graduating college?</p>
<p>You’re not alone. 1 in 6 Americans are in your shoes.</p>
<ul>
<li>Corporations and the super rich get tax cuts, bailouts, and obscene bonuses.</li>
<li>The rest of us get unemployment, downward mobility, foreclosures, and lack of affordable insurance.</li>
</ul>
<p>Don’t like it? Do something! Join the Occupy movement.</p>
<p>Together we will chip away at the symptoms and root causes of corporate control until <b>we the 99%</b> take back our government and make it work for us.</p>
<p><b>Join us and make your voices heard!</b></p>
<p>For the elderly:</p>
<p align="center"><b>GOLDEN YEARS MY FOOT!</b></p>
<p>Whatever happened to a secure retirement?</p>
<ul>
<li>Congress can’t wait to make cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and Housing and Urban Development.</li>
<li>Meanwhile, corporations and the super rich get tax cuts, bailouts, and obscene bonuses.</li>
</ul>
<p>How did this happen? Through the legalized bribery of unlimited campaign contributions, corporations and the super rich have bought our elected representatives.</p>
<p>Does that make you mad? Then do something about it! Join the Occupy movement.</p>
<p>Together we will chip away at the symptoms and root causes of corporate control until <b>we the 99%</b> take back our government and make it work for us.</p>
<p><b>Join us and make your voices heard!</b></p>
<p>For students:</p>
<p align="center">TUITION BLUES?</p>
<p>Tired of constant fee hikes? Wondering if there will be a job for you when you graduate? Worried about how you’ll pay off your student loans?</p>
<ul>
<li>Corporations and the super rich get tax cuts, bailouts, and obscene bonuses.</li>
<li>Students and college graduates get the shaft.</li>
</ul>
<p>If you’re sick of being used like an ATM, get mad.</p>
<p>Then join the Occupy movement. Together we will chip away at the symptoms and root causes of corporate control until <b>we the 99%</b> take back our government and make it work for us.</p>
<p><b>Join us and make your voices heard!</b></p>
<p>For the near poor:</p>
<p align="center">Living Paycheck To Paycheck?</p>
<p>Working twice as hard for less money? Neck deep in debt? Underinsured? Underemployed? At risk for foreclosure? One illness away from bankruptcy? Kids living at home who can’t find jobs after graduating college?</p>
<p>You’re not alone. 1 in 3 Americans fit this general description, according the latest Census data.</p>
<ul>
<li>Corporations and the super rich get tax cuts, bailouts, and obscene bonuses.</li>
<li>The rest of us get downward mobility, foreclosures, lack of affordable insurance, increased workloads, and job insecurity.</li>
</ul>
<p>Don’t like it? Do something! Join the Occupy movement.</p>
<p>Together we will chip away at the symptoms and root causes of corporate control until <b>we the 99%</b> take back our government and make it work for us.</p>
<p><b>Join us and make your voices heard!</b></p>
<p>Aside from outreach, there are other ways to get the 99% on our side. The occupations themselves have changed the conversation. Anyone who can be reached at this point knows that the 1% have a vastly disproportionate amount of the wealth, they know that the banks were bailed out, paid huge bonuses, and screwed homeowners. I think what the people you are talking about don't know yet is that corporations and the rich run our governments. We need to keep hammering that point home.</p>
<p>There are lots of ways to do this: national actions like Occupy the Courts, Occupy Congress, Occupy Foreclosures, the proposed West Coast shutdown of the ports, various boycotts and blockades are one way. Occupy forces helping folks who are in similar fights, like unions, foreclosed homeowners, folks who have had their rental deposit stolen, folks who haven't been paid at their jobs will get press and focus attention on the problems that are facing the 99%. Theatrical stunts like Occupying banks, flashmobs in shopping malls, etc. There are more ways than I could possibly think up.</p>
<p>Provided that we keep our message clear, all these methods will help raise awareness. Once the 99% understand how they're being used and what this will ultimately mean for them, they will join us, at least the ones who are reachable. And then the followers of the Kardashians will join us, because like I said, they are sheep.</p>