"Occupy 2.0" Round 1: 11/15/-11/21 - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T16:00:40Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/occupy-2-0?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A9583&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks for pointing out the m…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-20:6451976:Comment:112562011-11-20T10:26:11.872ZGailhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/Gail
<p>Thanks for pointing out the movie "Thrive". I watched it last evening. I like much of it.<br></br><br></br>I rather doubt that a few men who lived 100 years ago set out on a project of global domination, though as he connected the dots, he has made a credible argument. The "dots" that he set out are true though, and I'm glad he is getting the word out.<br></br><br></br>I would have taken the beginning of the story to an earlier time. Thomas Jefferson and the Anti-Federalists of 100 years before them…</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing out the movie "Thrive". I watched it last evening. I like much of it.<br/><br/>I rather doubt that a few men who lived 100 years ago set out on a project of global domination, though as he connected the dots, he has made a credible argument. The "dots" that he set out are true though, and I'm glad he is getting the word out.<br/><br/>I would have taken the beginning of the story to an earlier time. Thomas Jefferson and the Anti-Federalists of 100 years before them were complaining loudly about the unconstitutional establishment of a National Bank (here in US). He said, “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.” How right he was.<br/><br/>But in my opinion, even that is not the start-point of our problems. The actual recorded history of the start point is lost, but I believe it happened at the time of the Pharaohs.<br/><br/>This may seem to be a strange starting point, but I have my reasons for considering it.<br/><br/>One day, after taking it upon myself to learn about ancient Egyptian mythology, I pulled out the Bible and read the first chapter of Genesis. Suddenly, it dawned on me. That was no creation story as we understand it today. It was a story told in the language of geometry. I quickly found a compass and straight edge and began drawing what the words were telling me to draw.<br/><br/>It was quite an amazing experience. Through geometric drawings, I read about the beginnings of matter, the big bang, relativity, thermodynamics, fermions and bosuns, the history of earth that began with one continent (Pangea), anti-matter, and much more. The most striking moment for me was when I drew the fourth dimension (day). That is the day that the sun, moon, and stars were allegedly created. Well, there in my drawing was a sun (with a star in it), a moon, the earth between them, all on a field of stars. That is exactly what the story said that I should be seeing at that time.<br/><br/>Getting to that point was difficult at first, because you can’t create that drawing without knowing about the rest of the story. Time, it seems, works both forward and backward in the 4th dimension. I say this because you can’t draw the two larger lights of the 4th day without knowing how to create a pentagram (5th day – that comes in the next verse).<br/><br/>When all was said and done, and when I had taken dominion over the world that I had created (cut out, folded, and held in my hand), I was holding a pyramid. It looked familiar. I compared the dimensions to those of the Great Pyramid of Giza and it was a replica. I wondered about the internal chambers. Would they match as well? It wasn’t until I found Google Sketch that I was able to see that all of the chambers lined up with my drawing. The fist chapter of Genesis, I concluded is the long-lost schematic for the Great Pyramid. <br/><br/>With this in mind, and aware that on the sixth day, humans were given the powers of the gods, I realized that Genesis is the story of “us”. It complied with my philosophy about my being the god of my own reality and we being the god of ours. If I knew how to write a book, I think it would be fascinating.<br/><br/>I believe that the pharaohs perverted that beautiful short story written in geometry, and they claimed god-status for themselves, using the priestcraft along with the military might of the kingcraft to humble the people in their own eyes and blind them to their own power. Inequality became systemic at that point – when the earth’s population was yet very small. But they did have knowledge of what many now call the “ancient knowledge”. They just reserved it for themselves.<br/><br/>But that is just a side-story to explain why I wish that the movie hadn’t focused on conspiracy theories about the Robber Barons, who gained power shortly after the U. S. government established an unconstitutional national bank.<br/><br/>Thanks for the movie link. I do appreciate it.</p> 1. What are the most positive…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-20:6451976:Comment:114202011-11-20T00:07:17.193ZSteve Letsfixithttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/letsfixit3
<p>1. What are the most positive things you have experienced emerging from Occupy 1.0?</p>
<p>The physical occupation phase got the attention of the press and the public. It initiated a national dialog about inequity.</p>
<p>2. What are the dilemmas/opportunities in the current situation of the Occupy Movement?</p>
<p>Once it gained the national mic, the Movement had no stated mission, no objectives and no platform. So it has appeared to the broad American public to be more a matter of…</p>
<p>1. What are the most positive things you have experienced emerging from Occupy 1.0?</p>
<p>The physical occupation phase got the attention of the press and the public. It initiated a national dialog about inequity.</p>
<p>2. What are the dilemmas/opportunities in the current situation of the Occupy Movement?</p>
<p>Once it gained the national mic, the Movement had no stated mission, no objectives and no platform. So it has appeared to the broad American public to be more a matter of bitching than seeking productive change. Listen to this 10 minute segment of <a href="http://discussion.occupyreno.org//index.php/topic,126.0.html" target="_blank">Slate Online Magazine's weekly "Political Gabfest"</a> for 18Nov11. Slate is a reflection of mainstream Democratic thought and even it is begging the Occupy Movement to produce an attainable platform.</p>
<p>3. What question, if answered, might make the greatest difference in the development of an effective response to the clearing of so many #Occupy sites?</p>
<p>Is a substantial majority of all Americans willing to support a Constitutional Amendment to cut all funding by monied entities to legislators?</p>
<p>If the answer is yes many other problems in jobs, energy, healthcare, agriculture, foreign wars, etc. will begin a path to solutions in the best interest of the people.</p> Your second question is one t…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-19:6451976:Comment:111322011-11-19T13:35:36.465ZGailhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/Gail
<p>Your second question is one that I often talk about in my home group, but eyes immediately glaze over. No one wants to go that deep. <br></br> <br></br> There IS a way to reach consensus. Just condense the many issues to the most common denominator and deal with only that issue. All the rest of the issues are symptoms.<br></br>
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What is the common denominator? Our voices aren’t being heard. Our own government has devalued us.<br></br>
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How to fix that in America? Go back to the point where…</p>
<p>Your second question is one that I often talk about in my home group, but eyes immediately glaze over. No one wants to go that deep. <br/> <br/>
There IS a way to reach consensus. Just condense the many issues to the most common denominator and deal with only that issue. All the rest of the issues are symptoms.<br/>
<br/>
What is the common denominator? Our voices aren’t being heard. Our own government has devalued us.<br/>
<br/>
How to fix that in America? Go back to the point where it broke. <br/>
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When a water main breaks, we fix the break so that everyone can have water. We don’t ignore the break and start rationing water – with some receiving greater allotments than others based on a notion that we can all be equal but only for so long as some are more equal than others.<br/>
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The core problem is that government is broken, and we have been dealing with it by rationing power based on the same notion - that we can all be equal as long as some are always more equal than others.<br/>
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When did government break? We happen to know that – as do the vast majority of our congress.<br/>
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It cracked in one Supreme Court decision (Marbury v. Madison). That is when the Federalist Supreme Court assumed an unconstitutional power called “Judicial Review”. The court did not have the power to determine the constitutionality of legislation – and the Constitution gave Congress the right to determine the role of the Supreme Court.<br/>
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The Federalists were thrilled with this unconstitutional decision and used silence to allow it to continue. They could then use the courts to protect themselves from the wrath of voters. The Anti-Federalists were furious. Thomas Jefferson said that such a system is certain to lead to tyranny by an oligarchy. He was right, as the Citizens United decision proves.<br/>
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The main break came a few years later in a decision called “Mc Culloch v. Maryland”. The break was enormous and power was immediately reserved for the few.<br/>
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Mc Culloch v. Maryland dealt with the unconstitutional establishment of a national bank. In the constitutional convention, the idea was brought to the floor but was soundly rejected because it would threaten the very existence of a sound government. In fact, it was agreed that government would not have the power to establish ANY national charters. Madison, who was president at the time, had agreed with this sentiment, but it was Madison who now wanted a national bank.<br/>
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The bank was opened in Maryland and Maryland sued based on the 10th Amendment.<br/>
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The 10th Amendment says that government shall have no power unless granted it by the constitution. The court – still assuming unconstitutional powers, said that because the amendment didn’t use the word “specifically”, it was not a limit on government powers, as all believed that the Bill of Rights was intended to be. It said that it is an unlimited expansion of government powers. Among other things, it said:<br/>
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Congress MUST have every power unless specifically denied it by the Constitution. Even then, it must be able to assume specifically denied powers if those powers are implied or appropriate under the necessary powers clause.<br/>
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Government is not required to honor the constitution. It is only a guideline or a series of suggestions that government should strive to meet whenever possible – a position that the courts and all branches of government maintain today.<br/>
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This overturned the Constitutional Republic that so many fought and died for. In its place, the court instituted British Common Law. With the Constitution no longer the “Law of the Land” – as the text of the constitution says it is – the new constitution is an unwritten one. It is a series of laws and judicial precedents. So when you hear your congressional representative talking about the constitution – understand that they are not talking about the Constitution of the United States of America – which is a written document. England, and other countries, refer to their constitutions – but they have no written documents. They refer to a series of laws and judicial precedents. (called British Common Law)<br/>
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Government is no longer a Constitutional Republic, but rather a system of checks and balances (with the court being the ultimate authority and legislator).<br/>
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The court actually said that the people should never be consulted on small matters like this because they will make proper governance impossible. It basically threw out Article V that is the people’s assurance that they have a voice in their government. Article V describes the amendment process. Today, congress gets to decide whether a peoples’ amendment is part of the constitution or not – even if 100% of the people vote for it.<br/>
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States are not sovereign. Up until that moment they were – having demanded that as a condition of ratification. This is proven by the articles of ratification of the constitution drawn up by VA, NY, MA, CT, RI, and NH. These states gave themselves the right to secede if the government didn’t live up to the bargain and propose a Bill of Rights that ALL states wanted. The court said that there could be no “conditional” ratification. If they didn’t want to join the union, they didn’t have to, but now that they are part of it, they cannot claim sovereignty. This coalesced power that was reserved for the few, and turned servants of the people into a system that made them kings among kings. It made the people a collective that is today more than 330,000,000 large. Working on local levels is nearly impossible. One voice out of 330,000,000 is pretty hard to hear.<br/>
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Government had every right to establish a national bank. Because of fractionalizing, that allows a bank to lend 1,000 for every 100 in deposits, we now have a Ponzi scheme as an economic model. There are always more loans in existence than there is currency to pay them. This system is numerically guaranteed to fail if the economy stops growing – which helps explain our ongoing wars. War is so good for the economy because it increases GDP. We now have a war-based economy. Jefferson talked about this happening when he said of the national banks, “That we are overdone with banking institutions … that these have withdrawn capital from useful improvements and employments to nourish idleness, that the wars of the world have swollen our commerce beyond the wholesome limits of exchanging our own productions for our own wants, and that, for the emolument of a small proportion of our society who prefer these demoralizing pursuits to labors useful to the whole, the peace of the whole is endangered and all our present difficulties produced, are evils more easily to be deplored than remedied.”. He also said, “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.” How right he was.</p>
<p><br/>This is the point that the flow of power began flowing to the Robber Barons. Goldman Sachs is the latest version of a robber baron. It is when monied interests began bribing officials and when congress said that a bribe is really a campaign donation.</p>
<p>This decision (Mc Culloch v. Maryland) was a formal coup d’etat. The American people who lost their government of, by, and for the people have never been told this. But now, thanks to the Internet, we can all avail ourselves of the evidence that proves this. The Avalon Project has a wealth of original documents posted on its site –and how illuminating many of those documents are.<br/> <br/>
Our government today holds the Federalist Papers out as our founding documents. But the people are never told that the Federalist Papers were a FAILED set of arguments. When six states refused to ratify the constitution as written, all hope was lost. Madison then suggested that rather than returning to the drawing board, Article V (the amendment process) should be used to correct the deficiencies. He promised to personally introduce a “Bill of (people’s and states’) Rights in the first session of Congress if the states would ratify the constitution as written. The dissenting states agreed and those states passed CONDITIONAL ratifications – which retained their sovereignty and the right to secede should the federal government overstep their lawful authority. (You can find these articles of ratification on the Avalon website. The states are VA, NY, MA, CT, RI, and NH.<br/>
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This ONE decision – that threw out the Constitution as our governing doctrine is the break in the water main. It is the exact point where power stopped flowing to the people and started flowing to the banks and the corporations that grew up around them. <br/>
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The way to fix all of the symptoms that the OWS movement complains about is done with one simple measure. Reaffirm the intent of the 10th Amendment according to the intent of the ratifiers of the Constitution and each of its amendments. The Anti-Federalists (like Jefferson) and the PEOPLE are the ratifiers. Without them, there would be no constitution.<br/>
Will this simple measure fix all of our problems? No. But it will bring civility and sanity to the process.<br/>
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Things like the abortion issue would have to take on a different turn. The ratifiers of the constitution never provided for the federal government to have such power over such a thing. Women’s issues were very private and a woman’s body was her own. Men would never speak of such things in public. This issue would have to be proven under the ninth amendment (that the court has declared “is a joke”). The 9th says that there are some rights that are so basic that government (state or federal) cannot take them away from the people. Therefore, the argument would not be about my taking away your constitutional rights or you taking away mine. It would be for or against a PROPOSED amendment to the constitution. And that amendment would be agreed upon or rejected by the people.<br/>
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As it stands, the court says that government does not have to honor the constitution because it is not a contract. At the same time, it says that only through an amendment (that government is not required to honor) can money be taken out of politics. This is strange circular thinking that makes us feel like hamsters in a hamster wheel. It is impossible for the people to win.<br/>
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This is most clearly demonstrated (to me) in the case of our most recent amendment (the 27th). It says that there shall be no adjustment in pay until an election shall have intervened. It took congress three weeks to get around it by using the argument that the high inflation that it was intentionally creating to pay off the massive Regan defect (meaning devalue the value of the debt) has caused a situation whereby if congress doesn’t give itself a pay adjustment, that they will be in violation of the prohibition against pay adjustments. A few months later, the courts agreed, saying that a pay adjustment is not an adjustment in pay. The court called those who brought suit miscreants and rabble rousers – further declaring that the people had no standing to bring suit.<br/>
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So, as I see it, the break in the metaphorical water main occurred when we lost our government in a coup d’etat (Mc Culloch v. Madison), and it is impossible to fix it because government is keeping the coup d’etat a secret to this day.<br/>
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I think that if we can put some sunshine onto that decision, we can bring Tea Partiers and liberals together. We will all be working for the same cause – restoring a government that is of, by, and for the people.</p>
<p>I do apologize for the length, but am unable to give this much information to as many people as possible in any shorter form.</p> Thank you so much everyone fo…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-19:6451976:Comment:112142011-11-19T09:19:56.511ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Thank you so much everyone for all the fabulous postings to this discussion. Now it's time to pause, listen and reflect; to MAKE SOME COLLECTIVE MEANING! Can you dig it?</p>
<p>We have a "Harvesting Group" specifically dedicated to this task (or at least the IDEA of it, thus far!). I have created <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/group/harvesting-from-our-conversations/forum/topics/harvesting-from-the-occupy-2-0-discussion" target="_blank">a thread there devoted to this Occupy 2.0…</a></p>
<p>Thank you so much everyone for all the fabulous postings to this discussion. Now it's time to pause, listen and reflect; to MAKE SOME COLLECTIVE MEANING! Can you dig it?</p>
<p>We have a "Harvesting Group" specifically dedicated to this task (or at least the IDEA of it, thus far!). I have created <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/group/harvesting-from-our-conversations/forum/topics/harvesting-from-the-occupy-2-0-discussion" target="_blank">a thread there devoted to this Occupy 2.0 discussion</a>. Please join the group and begin the harvest! </p>
<p>Many hands make light work!</p>
<p>Here's a suggestion for how to contribute:</p>
<ul>
<li>Try taking ten or fifteen minutes to do the following</li>
<li>Browse through the <a target="_blank" href="http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/occupy-2-0">"#Occupy 2.0" discussion</a> and identify one or two things you find compelling. Look for things such as:<ul>
<li>Specific phrases, paragraphs or posts</li>
<li>General ideas, themes, patterns or questions </li>
<li>Things that surprised you or challenged you in some way. </li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>Post each individual gleaning separately here in this discussion (i.e. if you found three things you wanted to harvest, give them each their own post).</li>
<li>Note that you can link to specific posts from the main discussion so that it is easy to find the original post you are referring to or quoting from:<ul>
<li>Click the little chain link icon that appears at the top of each post, just before the words "reply by" and the name of the person posting. </li>
<li>Copy the url that appears in your browser</li>
<li>Paste it into your harvest posting.</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Post what you come up with here to this discussion: <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/group/harvesting-from-our-conversations/forum/topics/harvesting-from-the-occupy-2-0-discussion">http://www.occupycafe.org/group/harvesting-from-our-conversations/f...</a></li>
</ul>
<p>You might also reflect on this classic "question for all seasons," courtesy of <a href="http://www.theworldcafe.com/store.html" target="_blank">The World Cafe: Shaping Our Futures Through Conversations that Matter:</a></p>
<blockquote><p>What is taking shape here? What are we hearing underneath the variety of opinions being expressed? What is in the center of our listening?</p>
<p> </p>
</blockquote> Doreen,
I just watched Thrive…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-19:6451976:Comment:112062011-11-19T07:51:55.456ZRaffi A.http://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RaffiA
<p>Doreen,</p>
<p>I just watched Thrive the other day after seeing it mentioned here and I plan on putting the word out widely to my network. Good stuff. They put a lot of care in putting it together! Hats off to the filmmakers!</p>
<p>Doreen,</p>
<p>I just watched Thrive the other day after seeing it mentioned here and I plan on putting the word out widely to my network. Good stuff. They put a lot of care in putting it together! Hats off to the filmmakers!</p> One man's "straw man" is anot…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-18:6451976:Comment:107672011-11-18T19:51:27.635ZGary Horvitzhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/GaryHorvitz
<p>One man's "straw man" is another man's blind spot. Dig it!</p>
<p>One man's "straw man" is another man's blind spot. Dig it!</p> I do wish that you would test…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-18:6451976:Comment:105722011-11-18T19:40:13.312ZGailhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/Gail
<p>I do wish that you would test my ideas before you attack them so fiercely. Just TEST them. See if they work. That's what I asked. That shouldn't be offensive.</p>
<p>If they don't work for yout, what have you lost but a few minutes for a few days. If they do - what have you gained? Too much to describe.</p>
<p>I clearly said that I have no power over you if you don't want me to - and nothing in the universe can change that. I don't want power over you. My own life is interesting…</p>
<p>I do wish that you would test my ideas before you attack them so fiercely. Just TEST them. See if they work. That's what I asked. That shouldn't be offensive.</p>
<p>If they don't work for yout, what have you lost but a few minutes for a few days. If they do - what have you gained? Too much to describe.</p>
<p>I clearly said that I have no power over you if you don't want me to - and nothing in the universe can change that. I don't want power over you. My own life is interesting enough, thank you. I will live the life that "I" have.</p>
<p>I have also said that you are AS powerful as I am - within your own reality. If you don't want to accept that, then don't. Your life is your life to live as you will. </p>
<p>If you accept and embrace your own power, your fears will go away. You will become the master of your own fate. No one will be able to control or manipulate you. No one will make you angry or afraid. No one will force you into a position that you do not want to be in. Do you find that objectionable?</p>
<p>And as to my being dangerous and self-deluded - I can assure you that I am no better than you, but I am wiser than you and more knowledgeable than you about many things.</p>
<p>In any case, if you like who you are and like being angry and afraid all of the time, it's your life. Live it as you will. It is not my business how you choose. You cannot harm me. You cannot force me to become angry. I do not allow it. I wish you only happiness, and if your current attitude brings you joy, then I wish that - and all its consequences - for you.</p> As I stated "Everything must…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-18:6451976:Comment:108622011-11-18T17:33:34.067ZRobert Riversonghttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RobertRiversong
<p>As I stated "Everything must be approached with a skeptical openness" and "I recognize no god", but you continue to create straw men for your own enjoyment.</p>
<p>As I stated "Everything must be approached with a skeptical openness" and "I recognize no god", but you continue to create straw men for your own enjoyment.</p> I was part of Fred Burke's we…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-18:6451976:Comment:109122011-11-18T17:28:50.495ZRobert Riversonghttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RobertRiversong
<p>I was part of Fred Burke's web-based selective community for a while, but the long, dark and very ugly shadow that was cast from his ego caused a rebellion among his minions and a number of the best (mostly women who were insulted by Fred's need to literally expose and brag about his sexual prowess to the group) left in disgust.</p>
<p>Be wary of self-described "gurus" of the New Age. They are all-too-human and often corrupted by the power that they wield.</p>
<p>I was part of Fred Burke's web-based selective community for a while, but the long, dark and very ugly shadow that was cast from his ego caused a rebellion among his minions and a number of the best (mostly women who were insulted by Fred's need to literally expose and brag about his sexual prowess to the group) left in disgust.</p>
<p>Be wary of self-described "gurus" of the New Age. They are all-too-human and often corrupted by the power that they wield.</p> It is your ideas, and the cer…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-18:6451976:Comment:107622011-11-18T17:11:11.029ZGary Horvitzhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/GaryHorvitz
<p><em>It is your ideas, and the certainty with which you present them (CAPITAL LETTERS: this is the way things are) that is, however, a threat to the intellectual evolution of others who are trying to get a handle on why things are the way they are, how we got there, and where we need to go from here.</em></p>
<p>Are you certain of that, Robert?</p>
<p>And are you certain of this?</p>
<p><em>But what you call "empowerment" is merely a defensive walling off of legitimate criticism of the…</em></p>
<p><em>It is your ideas, and the certainty with which you present them (CAPITAL LETTERS: this is the way things are) that is, however, a threat to the intellectual evolution of others who are trying to get a handle on why things are the way they are, how we got there, and where we need to go from here.</em></p>
<p>Are you certain of that, Robert?</p>
<p>And are you certain of this?</p>
<p><em>But what you call "empowerment" is merely a defensive walling off of legitimate criticism of the certainties you have chosen to hide behind in order to feel safe.</em></p>
<p>You certainly sound as if you are. Is the "quiet voice of the universe" your god?</p>
<p> </p>