Occupy, the "Political Spectrum," and the 2012 Elections - Occupy Cafe2024-03-28T14:27:31Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/occupy-and-the-2012-elections?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A18270&feed=yes&xn_auth=noMr Blue, Lindsay, everyone in…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-22:6451976:Comment:191212011-12-22T05:48:54.708ZJohn Mulkinshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/JohnMulkins
<p>Mr Blue, Lindsay, everyone interested. </p>
<p>Thank you for this discussion. I am not able to read all of it, but have glanced it over for highlights. Perhaps we can talk at some point since these threads seem to go on forever!</p>
<p><br></br>We are looking at events in New Zealand and Iceland, and have contacts through one of our members to several Constitutional scholars who are focused on these particular issue. It is certainly within our view that "experts" from various countries should…</p>
<p>Mr Blue, Lindsay, everyone interested. </p>
<p>Thank you for this discussion. I am not able to read all of it, but have glanced it over for highlights. Perhaps we can talk at some point since these threads seem to go on forever!</p>
<p><br/>We are looking at events in New Zealand and Iceland, and have contacts through one of our members to several Constitutional scholars who are focused on these particular issue. It is certainly within our view that "experts" from various countries should be invited to part-take in the People's Congress.</p>
<p>There will be several developments to consider as the new year unfolds, and as anything of this nature, success of any initiative all depends on how broadly the proposal is supported. If Occupy were to decide nationally that it wanted to be participate in the People's Congress, I believe it would signal to the entire progressive community that Americans were ready for real self governance. That alone would be an important step. <br/><br/>Currently I am seeing more and more talk about the People's Congress, and believe it may well become the "endgame" we all need, but is something else better comes along, I am all for it.<br/><br/>If you would like to know more, please feel free to call me anytime. </p>
<p>John Mulkins</p>
<p>Founder, The People's Congress</p>
<p>510-381-3863</p> Oh dear me, here I am back ag…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-20:6451976:Comment:183462011-12-20T02:20:21.404ZVictoria Collierhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/VictoriaCollier
<p>Oh dear me, here I am back again when I was just snooping out of interest, but I just wanted to tell you that I helped John Mulkins with his idea for the People's Congress since January. He would love for you and anyone else to get involved asap in spreading the idea around starting constructive dialog about it in the Occupy movement. The anarchists won't like it, but we know that already.</p>
<p>Oh dear me, here I am back again when I was just snooping out of interest, but I just wanted to tell you that I helped John Mulkins with his idea for the People's Congress since January. He would love for you and anyone else to get involved asap in spreading the idea around starting constructive dialog about it in the Occupy movement. The anarchists won't like it, but we know that already.</p> I don't see a clear path to s…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-20:6451976:Comment:183442011-12-20T02:11:08.476ZMr. Bluehttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MrBlue
<p>I don't see a clear path to setting up a whole new constitution in the United States, but I tell you what. If you or someone else sets up a citizens referendum calling for a constitutional convention, I'll support it. I just hope that those people will also support a Peoples Congress. Whichever one makes it out of the gate first is fine with me. And if the Peoples Congress works out first, and people aren't satisfied, I'm fine with having a Constitutional Convention and starting from…</p>
<p>I don't see a clear path to setting up a whole new constitution in the United States, but I tell you what. If you or someone else sets up a citizens referendum calling for a constitutional convention, I'll support it. I just hope that those people will also support a Peoples Congress. Whichever one makes it out of the gate first is fine with me. And if the Peoples Congress works out first, and people aren't satisfied, I'm fine with having a Constitutional Convention and starting from scratch.</p>
<p>Oh, I should probably mention that the People's Congress would be crafting both Constitutional Amendments and laws, so Constitutional support would not be an issue. The whole idea is to plug all the holes in the Constitution that allow the 1% to control the political process, and that would of course include amending the Constitution as needed.</p> Excellent, Lindsay! In Germa…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-20:6451976:Comment:182742011-12-20T02:10:33.477ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p></p>
<p>Excellent, Lindsay! In Germany, the case that got electronics out of elections because they conceal election processes from the public eye and are therefore incompatible with democracy, was filed by two people, a man and his father. In Germany right now,it doesn't even take 2% of citizens to bring something to the Supreme Court. But I suspect that their Supreme Court can't just <a href="http://conservapedia.com/Certiorari" target="_blank">refuse to hear 99% of the cases brought</a>,…</p>
<p></p>
<p>Excellent, Lindsay! In Germany, the case that got electronics out of elections because they conceal election processes from the public eye and are therefore incompatible with democracy, was filed by two people, a man and his father. In Germany right now,it doesn't even take 2% of citizens to bring something to the Supreme Court. But I suspect that their Supreme Court can't just <a href="http://conservapedia.com/Certiorari" target="_blank">refuse to hear 99% of the cases brought</a>, the way ours does.</p>
<p>The rest of my comment is posted in the appropriate discussion:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/when-the-governed-don-t-consent?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A18634" target="_blank">http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/when-the-governed-don-t-consent?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A18634</a></p>
<p></p> I am suggesting that looking…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-20:6451976:Comment:186302011-12-20T01:35:43.653ZLindsay Newland Bowkerhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/LindsayNewlandBowker
<p>I am suggesting that looking to law to secure these cucillaly important things is not sufficient unless there is concurrent or pre exiting consitutional support for what is expessed in law. </p>
<p>Law can be dumped..in fact 3 decades of law thatglass setgall, the Housing & Community Devlopment Act of 1974 , the community reinvestment act all right out the window..there was no consitiutional mandeate that prevented what happened in one fell swoop.when Clinton signed into law the…</p>
<p>I am suggesting that looking to law to secure these cucillaly important things is not sufficient unless there is concurrent or pre exiting consitutional support for what is expessed in law. </p>
<p>Law can be dumped..in fact 3 decades of law thatglass setgall, the Housing & Community Devlopment Act of 1974 , the community reinvestment act all right out the window..there was no consitiutional mandeate that prevented what happened in one fell swoop.when Clinton signed into law the massive deregulation that lead us to where we are now.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>That's the whole point of Citizen's United..that since they have say on interpreting the constitution ( and I now see ours as pretty shabby)they disembwled all the campaign elctroal reform laws we lal worked so hard to pass. A 28th ammendment will take just as much time and effort to secure as doing what iceland did and dcsarpping everything..</p>
<p>There is no point working on any laws on crucial issues unless we have a constituion that mandates that law.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also another beautiful new creature emmerging creates a consitutional court sperate from the judicary to which the people have direct access. 2% of citizens can put an iissue before the court. 10% can initiate a repeal of law, a rmeoval of someone from office.tec. Direct dmoarcy is not far off remote still debated ideal. Smart folk are doing it. Smart nations are building citizen referendum and other citizen rights to revoke right into ther constitutions.</p>
<p>Everythings we are responding to,Occupy all of us awakened to the reality that we live in a corporatocracy a plutocracy, is a constiutional faiulre..our system just isn't set up right. People are writing into existence brand new from scratch constitutiins all over the world everything, everything we have spoke off here at Occupy Cafe. it isn;t some far off dream. It can be done. Soup to nuts in three years...just like Iceland..crowbdsources, fully transpaent th ehwile nation in each nation collaborating to call into being through new consitions a totally new way of governing. </p>
<p>Why argue and work hard for three years on patches to the consutions, tlaws that can be revoked when in that same time we can rebuild the entire system.</p>
<p>Let's go for a 2% citizens referendum ( that's 12 million signatures) calling for that!!! If we get 12 million signatures that would indicate at least 10% maybe more are lobbying for it too and that's the thershold..the tipping point for a "new majority"</p> Hi, Lindsay.
Examining modern…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-20:6451976:Comment:182732011-12-20T01:06:51.180ZMr. Bluehttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MrBlue
<p>Hi, Lindsay.</p>
<p>Examining modern and ancient constitutions sounds sounds worthwhile. Perhaps the folks at Peoples Congress can get some ideas from the Iceland, Ecuador, Venezuela, and other Constitutions, to avoid reinventing the wheel.</p>
<p>Hi, Lindsay.</p>
<p>Examining modern and ancient constitutions sounds sounds worthwhile. Perhaps the folks at Peoples Congress can get some ideas from the Iceland, Ecuador, Venezuela, and other Constitutions, to avoid reinventing the wheel.</p> Hey Mr. Blue,
I like this ap…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-20:6451976:Comment:185352011-12-20T00:46:18.713ZLindsay Newland Bowkerhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/LindsayNewlandBowker
<p>Hey Mr. Blue,</p>
<p> I like this approach too and agree this is a good one ( haven't seen their exact language)</p>
<p>Interestingly new consititutions address this at the consituonal level and I am coming to believe that is where it belongs..laws come and go..they are not permanent. Constitutions are permamnent. ( until they become outdated and are scrapped and rewritten)</p>
<p>Soup to nuts Iceland by an act of legislature set the nationon a course of a totally new constitution ;…</p>
<p>Hey Mr. Blue,</p>
<p> I like this approach too and agree this is a good one ( haven't seen their exact language)</p>
<p>Interestingly new consititutions address this at the consituonal level and I am coming to believe that is where it belongs..laws come and go..they are not permanent. Constitutions are permamnent. ( until they become outdated and are scrapped and rewritten)</p>
<p>Soup to nuts Iceland by an act of legislature set the nationon a course of a totally new constitution ; elected 25 ordinary people to do the drafting, who did so in no time in a completely transparaent process in which the whole country particpated on line. It's a fascinating docuement and the electoral process, the standrds for it, and what law must insure are part of it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>(AT TED I am hotsing a conversation that is exmaining and comparing these modern and some ancient constitutions all of which address almost all of what we have been pointing to her at Occupy Cafe..even bio diversity..!!! Yes yes everyone's doing it!!!)</p> I'd like to share an idea abo…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-20:6451976:Comment:182702011-12-20T00:03:43.055ZMr. Bluehttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MrBlue
<p>I'd like to share an idea about creating a tent which is big enough for all.</p>
<p>If the Election Boycott thread also on this site has made anything clear, it's that the system is gamed a thousand ways from Sunday. For that reason, incremental change either won't work, will be cosmetic, or can easily be rolled back. The end result is that we don't have a functioning democracy.</p>
<p>How about rallying around the idea of establishing a functioning democracy? I would think that would be a…</p>
<p>I'd like to share an idea about creating a tent which is big enough for all.</p>
<p>If the Election Boycott thread also on this site has made anything clear, it's that the system is gamed a thousand ways from Sunday. For that reason, incremental change either won't work, will be cosmetic, or can easily be rolled back. The end result is that we don't have a functioning democracy.</p>
<p>How about rallying around the idea of establishing a functioning democracy? I would think that would be a completely non-partisan position that leftists, conservatives, Ron Paul folks, and independents could agree on.</p>
<p>But the question is how, when incremental reform is all but impossible?</p>
<p>Check out PeoplesCongress.org. Their idea is to force reform on every aspect in which the system has been gamed, all at one time. No, they will not address every grievance in OWS's Declaration, only the ones that prevent us from having a functioning democracy, addressing such issues as corporate personhood, electoral reform, and media issues such as the Fairness Doctrine.</p>
<p>How do they plan to do this? I think you guys should go to <a rel="nofollow" href="http://peoplescongress.org" target="_blank">http://peoplescongress.org</a> and check it out for yourselves, but I'll do a quick summary.</p>
<p>Basically, some time in the Spring, the Peoples Congress will convene in Washington, pass a bunch of legislation internally that addresses all the issues that prevent a functioning democracy, and then insist Congress pass all of this new legislation into law.</p>
<p>Now, how do they plan to get Congress to act? (I can hear the voice of Mark E. Smith in my head about now: "What are they going to do? Hold their collective breath until they turn blue?")</p>
<p>Well, yes, basically, they intend to hold their breath until they turn blue. In other words, camp out in Washington until Congress passes the laws (or until they're dispersed by riot cops or put in indefinite detention). The organizers behind the Peoples Congress seem to be relying on large numbers of protestors making it impractical to throw everyone in jail.</p>
<p>Personally, I don't think simply sticking around and demanding Congress passes the laws will work, at least not by itself. I think a more effective way would be for the entire movement to support the Peoples Congress with a general strike and blockade, lasting as long as Congress won't pass the laws. Basically, shut down the entire country until the 1% capitulate.</p>
<p>Would it work? Who knows? But I think it's worth a try.</p> Hmm. That's interesting, Ben…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-19:6451976:Comment:184442011-12-19T23:06:33.807ZLindsay Newland Bowkerhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/LindsayNewlandBowker
<p>Hmm. That's interesting, Ben.. Jesse LaGrecca, an independent journalist, is the face and spokesman for Occupy as far as media is concerned..He is every where on the speaker circuit in New York and when people were paying more attention to Occupy he was on many different national news shows every night getting more air time than the actual Occupy events they sought him out to comment on.</p>
<p>I think Jesse is not carrying any messgaes out of the GA's..and whatever is issued from GA's is…</p>
<p>Hmm. That's interesting, Ben.. Jesse LaGrecca, an independent journalist, is the face and spokesman for Occupy as far as media is concerned..He is every where on the speaker circuit in New York and when people were paying more attention to Occupy he was on many different national news shows every night getting more air time than the actual Occupy events they sought him out to comment on.</p>
<p>I think Jesse is not carrying any messgaes out of the GA's..and whatever is issued from GA's is not really getting out to small local groups. ( although I have directed local groups to the Cafe and also to adbusters and encouraged them to ask questions or report in here) .</p>
<p>Perhaps GA should contact Jesse and speak to him about it.</p>
<p>Ben, thanks for answering my questions.</p> Hi Ben,
What I have learned c…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-12-19:6451976:Comment:183392011-12-19T22:57:01.251ZLindsay Newland Bowkerhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/LindsayNewlandBowker
<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>What I have learned connecting a bit with Occupy Portland, Occupy Bangor and Occupy Blue Hill here in Maine ( throughfreinds involved) is that Occupy throughout America, people using that monniker, are only doing that..they don't know about or assocaite with the adbusters anarchist ideas and tactics....they are answering the pulse Occupy and so many other big movements have sent out acrss Ammerica, across the wolrd, in their own vernacular their own culture and traditions. …</p>
<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>What I have learned connecting a bit with Occupy Portland, Occupy Bangor and Occupy Blue Hill here in Maine ( throughfreinds involved) is that Occupy throughout America, people using that monniker, are only doing that..they don't know about or assocaite with the adbusters anarchist ideas and tactics....they are answering the pulse Occupy and so many other big movements have sent out acrss Ammerica, across the wolrd, in their own vernacular their own culture and traditions. Using the word "Occupy" provides an umbrella that is non partisan not driven by the voice and agenda of any one othere existing orgnaization. That's all great and as it should be.</p>
<p>I guess I was suggesting that I hear an opportunity in the occupy expressions here in Maine for the adbusters/anarchist folks who sparked this Occupy movement to think of itsellf as an Umbrella and to think about ways that begin to fold these many different unique expressions of Occupy into co-hearted collaborative work directed mainly at helping people to awaken to action..That Occupy central think about actions that might capture media attention ( still, although less) and which model the kinds of actions local Occupy's could take .</p>
<p>In other words not so much driving to a a unified common agenda ( although we do have a list we are all united on and working for) as working to ignite and inspire authentic individual expressions. That's where the real power is. An awakening to engagement at the level of individuals. When people see that..when they see people they know right here in their own neighborhoods awakening, speaking, acting, making time to commit to helping us all out of this more and more will do that. </p>
<p>If Occupy is to have any "hallmark" in the elections it should be that the Occupy umbrella is non partisan..that it transcends party lines and seeks to get others to do so..to get as many encumbents as possible to give up all party attachments and run as independents..real independents...</p>
<p>That is the participatory process we seek is it not? Everyone awake, Everyone actually actively engaged in the process of governing? Everyone doing that on a sustained basis?</p>
<p>The seeds are these little local small groups giving unique and beuatiful use of the monniker "Occupy". We need to grow and support these seeds allowing them to keep that authentic very local, very colloquial expression of that . That's what their neighbors will relate to and be inspired by. Thats what will build more and more of the 99% into awake and engaged citizens.</p>