Occupy Heart 11/1: Choice or Consequences - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T11:20:35Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/occupy-heart-11-1-choice-or-consequences?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A34245&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYou're welcome, Dyck. Thanks.tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-06:6451976:Comment:344202012-11-06T00:12:40.272ZShikhahttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/Shikha
<p>You're welcome, Dyck. Thanks.</p>
<p>You're welcome, Dyck. Thanks.</p> It's 3-5pm CST tomorrow. I s…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:343402012-11-05T22:58:55.347ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>It's 3-5pm CST tomorrow. I suppose it is arbitrary and discriminatory to only give Eastern, Pacific and GMT times. And three times seems like a lot to list, plus why should we stop at four if we expand this? On the other hand, I think the more skilled we can be at navigating time differences in this crazy virtual world, the easier our work will be.</p>
<p>It's 3-5pm CST tomorrow. I suppose it is arbitrary and discriminatory to only give Eastern, Pacific and GMT times. And three times seems like a lot to list, plus why should we stop at four if we expand this? On the other hand, I think the more skilled we can be at navigating time differences in this crazy virtual world, the easier our work will be.</p> Thank you for this, Jerry.
Wh…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:341682012-11-05T22:38:46.746ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Thank you for this, Jerry.</p>
<blockquote><p><span>What can explain the importance being placed now on differences rather than commonalities? Is one more important than the other?</span></p>
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<p>Excellent questions. Also perhaps, <em>how do we discuss our differences in ways that value them and strengthen us as a community?</em> Reminded yet again of the <a href="http://humanity4point0.ning.com/" target="_blank">Humanity 4.0</a> framing: on the one hand, greater diversity of…</p>
<p>Thank you for this, Jerry.</p>
<blockquote><p><span>What can explain the importance being placed now on differences rather than commonalities? Is one more important than the other?</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Excellent questions. Also perhaps, <em>how do we discuss our differences in ways that value them and strengthen us as a community?</em> Reminded yet again of the <a href="http://humanity4point0.ning.com/" target="_blank">Humanity 4.0</a> framing: on the one hand, greater diversity of the parts within a living system <em>increases</em> its resilience. And on the other, the more <em>convergent the sense of the whole is</em>, the more resilient the system becomes. Living systems do both these things well.</p> I'm thinking of an innocent p…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:341672012-11-05T22:31:30.623ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>I'm thinking of an innocent person in shackles who was imprisoned without trial and subjected to torture, and how I could explain to them that voting for the person who put them there was done out of love and respect.</p>
<p>Drawing a blank.</p>
<p>I'm thinking of an innocent person in shackles who was imprisoned without trial and subjected to torture, and how I could explain to them that voting for the person who put them there was done out of love and respect.</p>
<p>Drawing a blank.</p> The Tuesday Connect2012 call?…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:341662012-11-05T22:29:51.464ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>The Tuesday Connect2012 call? No, that's still on. Missed you on our call today, Jerry. It would be great to have you with us again tomorrow as we continue to discuss Gifts in the context of this community.</p>
<p>The Tuesday Connect2012 call? No, that's still on. Missed you on our call today, Jerry. It would be great to have you with us again tomorrow as we continue to discuss Gifts in the context of this community.</p> If I recall correctly, Ouspen…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:343372012-11-05T22:27:49.021ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>If I recall correctly, Ouspensky asked Gurdjieff that very same question. The response, if my memory serves, was, "Do? Man cannot do."</p>
<p>O also asked what would happen if people woke up and became aware of the consequences of their actions. I think G said something like, "They would go right on bashing each others heads in."</p>
<p>However, as Pawel pointed out, this world is mere illusion, so if you think you are doing something, and that makes you hopeful, joyful, and gives you a…</p>
<p>If I recall correctly, Ouspensky asked Gurdjieff that very same question. The response, if my memory serves, was, "Do? Man cannot do."</p>
<p>O also asked what would happen if people woke up and became aware of the consequences of their actions. I think G said something like, "They would go right on bashing each others heads in."</p>
<p>However, as Pawel pointed out, this world is mere illusion, so if you think you are doing something, and that makes you hopeful, joyful, and gives you a feeling of participating in society and relating to others, why not continue to do it?</p>
<p>Obviously you prefer to defend your rights with bullets after you've voted in elections that you know will help empower a government that is taking away your rights. Perhaps the Satanists had a point when they said, "Do what you will be the whole of the law."</p>
<p>You certainly can't undo your vote even if you wanted to, but if you're interested in elections at all, you might want to try to keep track later on to see if you can find out if your vote was actually counted. Millions of votes simply were not counted in the last three Presidential elections, but they might be counted this time, who knows?</p>
<p>Anyway, if your candidates or issues win, what does it matter if millions of votes go uncounted?</p>
<p>Of course if Romney or Obama wins, and they're the only ones with any realistic chance of winning, they won't really care if people managed to elect good local candidates, to get worthwhile state initiatives passed, or if a significant number of people voted for third parties. As long as they retain the right to jail or kill anyone they want without a trial, whatever else people may do is of little importance to them.</p>
<p></p> Here's another quote from Meg…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:344162012-11-05T22:20:55.287ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Here's another quote from Meg Wheatley's new book, <em>So Far from Home,</em> that seems to speak to this struggle:</p>
<blockquote><p>I feel strongly that we are misperceiving both our own and<br></br>the planet’s capacities. We need to understand how we<br></br>got here, otherwise we’ll continue to exhaust ourselves to<br></br>the point of collapse. It’s happening all around us—people<br></br>getting ill, resigning, withdrawing into cynicism and bitterness.<br></br>We have to stop this waste of wonderful…</p>
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<p>Here's another quote from Meg Wheatley's new book, <em>So Far from Home,</em> that seems to speak to this struggle:</p>
<blockquote><p>I feel strongly that we are misperceiving both our own and<br/>the planet’s capacities. We need to understand how we<br/>got here, otherwise we’ll continue to exhaust ourselves to<br/>the point of collapse. It’s happening all around us—people<br/>getting ill, resigning, withdrawing into cynicism and bitterness.<br/>We have to stop this waste of wonderful humans.<br/>We have to realize that we’re exhausted because we<br/>are struggling to accomplish what can never be accomplished.<br/>And then blaming ourselves and each other for<br/>our failures. (p.25)</p>
</blockquote> Mark: I am finished discussin…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:342512012-11-05T21:41:23.502ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Mark: I am finished discussing voting with you. What I see and what you see on this subject have been more than amply expressed for my taste, and I now find it truly unpleasant to continue reading your opinion on it. If your goal is to persuade, you are failing and each reply reiterating your criticisms of me and others only makes it worse. </p>
<p>My guess is that I am not alone in these sentiments. If we care about creating hospitable space, we need to actually leave some space for…</p>
<p>Mark: I am finished discussing voting with you. What I see and what you see on this subject have been more than amply expressed for my taste, and I now find it truly unpleasant to continue reading your opinion on it. If your goal is to persuade, you are failing and each reply reiterating your criticisms of me and others only makes it worse. </p>
<p>My guess is that I am not alone in these sentiments. If we care about creating hospitable space, we need to actually leave some space for others. I request that you help us to do this, as a valued member of this community.</p> Do you not see that by voting…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:344142012-11-05T21:29:12.485ZMark E. Smithhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/MarkESmith
<p>Do you not see that by voting for someone who has asserted the legal right to imprison or kill me, you, or any other US citizen without trial, Ben, you are limiting the right and possibility of people participating in <em>this</em> Cafe?</p>
<p>I have to admit that I don't making connecting with everyone a priority. I have no wish to connect with child molesters, fascists, or people who commit crimes against humanity, I feel that those who vote to give another human being the right to…</p>
<p>Do you not see that by voting for someone who has asserted the legal right to imprison or kill me, you, or any other US citizen without trial, Ben, you are limiting the right and possibility of people participating in <em>this</em> Cafe?</p>
<p>I have to admit that I don't making connecting with everyone a priority. I have no wish to connect with child molesters, fascists, or people who commit crimes against humanity, I feel that those who vote to give another human being the right to imprison or kill me without a trial, have no respect for me and are not choosing to connect with me, they wish only to take away my civil and human rights,. I have to struggle with myself to even bring myself to try to interact respectfully with those who choose to deny my civil and human rights.</p>
<p>Denying my civil and human rights is not the way to strengthen a relationship with me.</p>
<p>I do feel that voting to take away the civil and human rights of others has every bearing on our ability to be in relationship.</p>
<p></p> I guess I'm not totally clear…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2012-11-05:6451976:Comment:342502012-11-05T21:26:13.903ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>I guess I'm not totally clear on the distinction of "propulsion" versus choice, Dyck. Especially in a written medium like this one, where we can look over our words before we share them. You are supporting any exchange that is "natural,... unconditioned and uncontrived." For my part, at age 51, I can't imagine what an "unconditioned" communication from me might be. </p>
<p>It does seems clear to me that the culture of this Cafe, if there is to be one that has life and power in it, must be…</p>
<p>I guess I'm not totally clear on the distinction of "propulsion" versus choice, Dyck. Especially in a written medium like this one, where we can look over our words before we share them. You are supporting any exchange that is "natural,... unconditioned and uncontrived." For my part, at age 51, I can't imagine what an "unconditioned" communication from me might be. </p>
<p>It does seems clear to me that the culture of this Cafe, if there is to be one that has life and power in it, must be a conscious co-creation of those who choose (yes, <em>choose!</em>) to engage here. And I am requesting that we consent to the notion that that culture be based on creating hospitable space for anyone who chooses to participate, seeking to be in relationship with them, and refraining from making judgments and demands of them.</p>
<p>I think the challenge lies at the intersection of the cultures we are each describing, Dyck. You are yearning for a place to be "authentic,... reflecting all you have in you." I LOVE that! And I love YOU when you bring that here, as you do so often. AND I think we can have such a space and yet refrain from giving voice to our judgments, and even learning to let go of them and to have fewer of them (as I believe you described doing yourself, just last week).</p>
<p>Perhaps in some ways, this challenge is a powerful fractal of the larger Shift many of us seek in the world. Our New Story is one where we recognize our interconnectedness as one human family. Thus, as this community put it so well in <a href="http://www.occupycafe.org/page/a-declaration" target="_blank">the Declaration</a> you were so instrumental in crafting, Dyck:</p>
<blockquote><p><b id="internal-source-marker_0.7973581308033317"><span>-we declare that everyone must have an opportunity to participate</span><span>. All voices are heard and considered. My neighbors’ needs are my needs and my neighbors are global; therefore everyone’s needs must be met in order to thrive as a global society.</span><br/><br/><span>-</span><span>we declare trust in our universal humanity</span> <span>and recognition of our capability to transcend fear, and function from compassion and love...</span></b></p>
<p><b id="internal-source-marker_0.7973581308033317"><span><b id="internal-source-marker_0.7973581308033317"><span>We declare our commitment to these points by working together in solidarity...</span></b> </span></b></p>
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