Occupy Wall Street Favor Fading Thus the Need for Positive, Statements That Impact Other Humans at a Common Needs Level - Occupy Cafe2024-03-29T12:40:25Zhttp://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading-thus-the-need-for-positive?commentId=6451976%3AComment%3A12311&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi David and Lindsay,
I'm rep…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-26:6451976:Comment:139022011-11-26T20:02:49.259ZSuzanne Joneshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/SuzanneJones
<p>Hi David and Lindsay,</p>
<p>I'm replying to you both here because I'm new at forums and haven't quite figured out where and how to reply in all cases.</p>
<p>I agree David, that using people's names isn't the best idea and I am willing to refrain from using anyone's name in the future unless speaking directly to them.</p>
<p>I like what you say Linsday about the value of going beyhond not calling people names to actually employing nonviolent communication strategies in our daily lives. In…</p>
<p>Hi David and Lindsay,</p>
<p>I'm replying to you both here because I'm new at forums and haven't quite figured out where and how to reply in all cases.</p>
<p>I agree David, that using people's names isn't the best idea and I am willing to refrain from using anyone's name in the future unless speaking directly to them.</p>
<p>I like what you say Linsday about the value of going beyhond not calling people names to actually employing nonviolent communication strategies in our daily lives. In my experience, using language that speaks my feelings and needs rather than evaluates, criticises, or labels another person tends to create an entirely different kind of communication - much more likely to keep people in dialog and feeling heard, respected, and appreciated. BTW, there is an extensive website around the Nonviolent Communication approach at <a href="http://www.cnvc.org">www.cnvc.org</a> - The Center for Nonviolent Communication.</p>
<p>For others who may be reading this post and have not seen the previous post regarding our daily call, the call-in number for our daily nonviolent communication strategies call is 312-304-9152 - 4:00 PM EST daily.</p> Hi Ben,
I have been offl ine…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-26:6451976:Comment:137162011-11-26T19:50:58.904ZSuzanne Joneshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/SuzanneJones
<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>I have been offl ine for a few days over Thanksgiving. I appreciate your reflections on this situation, and I like what I read as your vision for Occupy Cafe - conversations that launch a vibrant and transformative community...creating initiatives and collaborations that we can bring into the world.</p>
<p>I agree that a forum like this is difficult. As mentioned earlier, I find it interesting that emoticons were developed. It seems that lack of nonverbal feedback was a…</p>
<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>I have been offl ine for a few days over Thanksgiving. I appreciate your reflections on this situation, and I like what I read as your vision for Occupy Cafe - conversations that launch a vibrant and transformative community...creating initiatives and collaborations that we can bring into the world.</p>
<p>I agree that a forum like this is difficult. As mentioned earlier, I find it interesting that emoticons were developed. It seems that lack of nonverbal feedback was a problem for a lot of people.</p>
<p>I recently obtained my master's degree in communication. The field of communication is expanding rapidly and has become quite interesitng. While studying non-verbal communication, I read that we take in only 7% of what people say, while 93% of what we take in is nonverbal. And, if there is a descrepancy between what a person says and their nonverbals, people tend to believe the nonverbals. If this is true, it puts us all at a bit of disadvantage on these forums.</p>
<p>But, I also know of a reserach study that claims that teachers who were teaching students on line developed a deeper level of trust with their students and developed trust more quickly when they used Nonviolent Communication guidelines.</p>
<p>I agree with what you say that we are in the beginning stages of understanding the strengths and weaknesses of on line communication. In fact, a whole new paradigm has developed over the last few years in the field of communication studies around mediated communication.</p>
<p>So, here's to moving forward, in many many ways.</p>
<p>I will be off line again for several days while focusing on getting the word out about our nonviolent communicaton strategies phone support line.</p>
<p>Suzanne</p> Thanks for this Lindsay!tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:122202011-11-21T15:53:33.301ZRaffi A.http://www.occupycafe.org/profile/RaffiA
<p>Thanks for this Lindsay!</p>
<p>Thanks for this Lindsay!</p> David ( or are greetings incl…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:124172011-11-21T15:28:26.469ZLindsay Newland Bowkerhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/LindsayNewlandBowker
<p>David ( or are greetings included in your review..here I use greetings only to be sure my post will connect up with the post to which is ts responding..I like your practice of cutting and pastin the actual phrase to which your are responding..happy though to honor what seves the conversation best and is most inclusive)</p>
<p>I am not trained in facilitation but I find the process of facilitated discussions almost miraculous. I am not trained in NCV as Suzanne is and want to be because I…</p>
<p>David ( or are greetings included in your review..here I use greetings only to be sure my post will connect up with the post to which is ts responding..I like your practice of cutting and pastin the actual phrase to which your are responding..happy though to honor what seves the conversation best and is most inclusive)</p>
<p>I am not trained in facilitation but I find the process of facilitated discussions almost miraculous. I am not trained in NCV as Suzanne is and want to be because I saw it at work here . I can see what a valuable personal skill that is.</p>
<p>Speaking from my own experience, I can attest that ageement on practice ( which is in part what facilitated discussion is..people agree to speak according to certain practices.eg not interrupting, trying to listen deeply as each person speak, speaking only where there is something of value to add, not using negative characterizing of anothers comments (e.f. "that's silly, thats shallow,)when we don;t agree with or understand those comments; and never negatively characterizing .another speaker 'You're a liar, You are lying etc.) </p>
<p> What happens out of these kinds of practices is magical..Tom Atlee has written many wonderful essays on this as have countless others. Many of these practices go back to ancient tribal traditions recognized and practiced by tribes all over the world..out of something like a common wisdom.</p>
<p>My own experience is that in such practices both speaker and listener are enriched and that the power of community arises giving every participant access to something, that might not oterwise have been possible.</p>
<p>In other words, I think I am speaking for more than just agreeing not to knock each other around, or than just agreeing to not characterize others ideas in a diminishing or negative way. Ithink I am pointing to how important the agreed process is to allowing us all to get to heart of the common ground on which we stand not in unity, not in agreement . not in sameness, but in the richness and texture of our diversity. These practices are a way of harvesting the possibilities that exists for each of us when we speak and listen in diverse communities in a way that is beyond ego and the egoic expressions.</p> I see the irony in my post.
I…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:124162011-11-21T15:07:51.850ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<p>I see the irony in my post.</p>
<p>It was that sequence here that sparked the thoughts.</p>
<p>I see the irony in my post.</p>
<p>It was that sequence here that sparked the thoughts.</p> "using a members name online…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:122152011-11-21T14:42:19.344ZDavid Eggletonhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/DavidEggleton
<p>"using a members name online in discussing that members negative actions is on the same plane as the negative action itself."</p>
<p>The following is somewhat off the top of my head, not long considered.</p>
<p>I would go farther and say that unless one wants a particular person (who is not a friend, because we can write notes directly to friends) to give attention to something one has to say <em>about something else</em>, one should not use another's name at all. We can knock ideas around,…</p>
<p>"using a members name online in discussing that members negative actions is on the same plane as the negative action itself."</p>
<p>The following is somewhat off the top of my head, not long considered.</p>
<p>I would go farther and say that unless one wants a particular person (who is not a friend, because we can write notes directly to friends) to give attention to something one has to say <em>about something else</em>, one should not use another's name at all. We can knock ideas around, not each other.</p>
<p>What if Robert had not written about fellow site members, and vice versa? What if he had posted <a target="_blank" href="http://www.occupycafe.org/profiles/blogs/what-is-the-zeitgeist-movement-and-who-is-peter-joseph">What is the Zeitgeist Movement and Who is Peter Joseph?</a> immediately upon seeing evidence of interest about which he was concerned?</p>
<p>I must go review my own behavior here in light of this.</p> Three observations Ben and al…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:124102011-11-21T13:25:00.699ZLindsay Newland Bowkerhttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/LindsayNewlandBowker
<p>Three observations Ben and all occupy stewards.</p>
<p>(1) using a members name online in discussing that members negative actions is on the same plane as the negative action itself. </p>
<p>(2) it is not exactly "ownership" on which we who have spoken up are acting. and speaking ( behind the scenes)...it's mutuality, i'ts standards of mutual respect, it's mutual stewardship. it's co-intelligence</p>
<p>(3) a community that does not value "livingness" in stewardship for its members, that…</p>
<p>Three observations Ben and all occupy stewards.</p>
<p>(1) using a members name online in discussing that members negative actions is on the same plane as the negative action itself. </p>
<p>(2) it is not exactly "ownership" on which we who have spoken up are acting. and speaking ( behind the scenes)...it's mutuality, i'ts standards of mutual respect, it's mutual stewardship. it's co-intelligence</p>
<p>(3) a community that does not value "livingness" in stewardship for its members, that does not cultivate and live from a model of mutual stewardship cannot make a meannigful contribution to livingness in our broken world. </p>
<p> </p> Suzanne/Robert (if you're sti…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:126132011-11-21T11:45:40.641ZBen Robertshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/BenRoberts
<p>Suzanne/Robert (if you're still "here')/Lindsay:<br></br> <br></br> This has been very thought-provoking for me to reflect on as well. One thing that has become clear to me from JJ's responses--especially some outside of this forum--is that he is not a classic troll, cleverly manipulating the conversation for the purpose of derailing it. Rather, he is a very angry, and perhaps even delusional person who is convinced that Suzanne and I are agents provocateurs or FBI plants, attempting to subvert the…</p>
<p>Suzanne/Robert (if you're still "here')/Lindsay:<br/> <br/>
This has been very thought-provoking for me to reflect on as well. One thing that has become clear to me from JJ's responses--especially some outside of this forum--is that he is not a classic troll, cleverly manipulating the conversation for the purpose of derailing it. Rather, he is a very angry, and perhaps even delusional person who is convinced that Suzanne and I are agents provocateurs or FBI plants, attempting to subvert the movement and draw energy and funding away from those who are its true representatives.<br/>
<br/>
I also must say that I AGREE with his initial point that the poll Suzanne cited to begin this thread may not be at all an accurate reflection of public opinion. Polls are very often biased and manipulative. Not that I have looked into the one cited specifically to evaluate that. At the same time, the underlying point that the movement needs to resonate even more powerfully with the 99% of which it is now only a small subset is indeed well-taken.<br/>
<br/>
I don't know what this implies about the best way to have dealt with him, but I can tell you that he is now attempting to personally slander me and Occupy Cafe in other Occupy forums.<br/>
<br/>
I do now regret the censoring of his comments here. I think it would have been better to have left them, and to have conducted all my communications with him via this forum, rather than in private messages. In that way, the full record of what transpired would have been preserved and I think it would have served all of us better in the long run. It probably would't have mattered to JJ, but it would have showed a higher level of integrity on our part.<br/>
<br/>
The larger context for all of this is the question of just what is possible in terms of human relations "in the cloud." Robert and I had an exchange on this in another forum thread. He suggested that one cannot create real community in a virtual space such as this. I agree that it is hard to do so, but I know that there are many, many groups out there, from simple list-serves to intricate social networks, where real human connections flourish and have meaning and impact on peoples' lives.<br/>
<br/>
The cloud is not worse than face to face, nor is it a substitute. It is simply different. It has its own strengths and weaknesses. And we are all still in the early stages of understanding those and learning how to intentionally build community in this new context. Part of that learning, I believe, will include breaking down the arbitrary divisions we often make between "virtual" and face-to-face endeavors, with real-time voice connections as yet a third "separate" space. Occupy Cafe intends to create a presence at all three of these levels and to weave them together, allowing the strengths of each to complement and contribute to the whole.<br/>
<br/>
Our highest vision for Occupy Cafe is that our conversations launch a vibrant and transformative community--one that creates its own initiatives and collaborates to bring them into the REAL world. We are in the invitation stage now, and I want to move into making that more explicit.<br/>
<br/>
Stay tuned for more, and thank you ALL so much for your energy and intelligence, your commitment and sense of OWNERSHIP.<br/>
<br/>
Cheers,<br/>
Ben</p> Hi Robert,
After reading your…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:123122011-11-21T08:26:23.333ZSuzanne Joneshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/SuzanneJones
<p>Hi Robert,</p>
<p>After reading your latest message again, I realize that I'd like to continue this discussion and see where it goes from here. Not to press my point with you, necessarily, but to continue exploring this idea of responding or not responding to certain people on the forum.</p>
<p>Whether JJ was angry or just attempting to disrupt the post, wouldn't you agree that he was offering a communication. And, isn't being heard something most of us want; our opinions, our needs, our…</p>
<p>Hi Robert,</p>
<p>After reading your latest message again, I realize that I'd like to continue this discussion and see where it goes from here. Not to press my point with you, necessarily, but to continue exploring this idea of responding or not responding to certain people on the forum.</p>
<p>Whether JJ was angry or just attempting to disrupt the post, wouldn't you agree that he was offering a communication. And, isn't being heard something most of us want; our opinions, our needs, our concerns? Some other needs might be: to matter, to make a difference, to make a contribution to something we feel passionate about (either passionate about changing it or passionate about keeping it the same). It seems to me that If what we want is to be heard, wouldn't not receiving an answer make a person more angry?</p>
<p>I get that you believe continuing to exchange replies with JJ would be futile. Here's an interesting story, though. A young woman who comes onto our daily calls has begun empathizing with "trolls" on an international occupy website. She is a very compassionate person by nature and wants these folks to be heard just like everyone else. She reports that after being heard by her for a while, many of these people just go off the chat of their own volition, or at least calm down in their approach to others on the call.</p>
<p>I have had many similar experiences where very, very angry people calm down and begin to listen if I can stay in communcation with them long enough to really hear them out. No matter what they're saying, not matter how they're saying it, I attempt to hear what needs are being expressed. A need to disrupt a forum probably has a deeper need, such as a need to be heard about the "rightness" of one's opinion on a subject, even to the exclusion of hearing others. There is often an almost miraculous (or at least pretty amazing) shift in people's demeanor, as well as their willingness to hear me when I am able to hear what their underlying need is. And, as mentioned earlier, the angrier they are, the longer it sometimes takes.</p>
<p>Suzanne</p> Hi Lindsay,
I'm back after ha…tag:www.occupycafe.org,2011-11-21:6451976:Comment:123112011-11-21T07:58:05.845ZSuzanne Joneshttp://www.occupycafe.org/profile/SuzanneJones
<p>Hi Lindsay,</p>
<p>I'm back after having a lot of fun folkdancing, eating great food, and visiting with family for a couple of days. I'm refreshed and ready to continue. I really appreciate your support and am happy to accept a randiance of blessings from you. I added a link to the forum of an internet radio interview I, and a couple of colleagues, did tonight.</p>
<p>Hi Lindsay,</p>
<p>I'm back after having a lot of fun folkdancing, eating great food, and visiting with family for a couple of days. I'm refreshed and ready to continue. I really appreciate your support and am happy to accept a randiance of blessings from you. I added a link to the forum of an internet radio interview I, and a couple of colleagues, did tonight.</p>