Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Lindsay Newland Bowker on December 15, 2011 at 5:51pm

Dear Victoria,

 

I completely agree and just invited all the Occupy Stewards to read it top to bottom  avoiding the ocasional snow drifts and detours.

 

,I loved both the process.. and the content/

You and Giele have been so exemplary in how to reach beyomd conflict ; how to stay civil and focused when the going gets rough..so impressed with you two amazing women..and you too Mark for opening up and softening a bit.

I also agree we covered some amazing ground and it is a very valuable reading on two opposing strategies when there was substantial agreement on the problems.  Very interesting.

Of course the conversation will reside here for reading and can be posted via link.  I have referred many to it already.

 

By the way who came up with "electoral dysfunction"..I love that!!!

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Permalink Reply by Lindsay Newland Bowker on December 15, 2011 at 5:31pm

and Victoria..the dems have caved on the millionaire sur tax..

it is apalling

it is frightening

Obama has been letting us down and now he is selling us out.  I just saw on the Occupy newsfeed there was a massive protest..today..Bill of Rights Day  have to get the details on who turned up .

. http://occupylive.org/#/stories/736532796e41715a41314d7477336c70657...

 .

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Victoria Collier on December 15, 2011 at 8:11pm

Lindsey, I'm trying really hard to figure out whether its true that Obama demanded the removal of protections for American citizens (though we already lost our real protections with the PATRIOT ACt and the Military Commissions Act), because there are many conflicting stories flying around the Internet right now.

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Permalink Reply by David Eggleton on December 15, 2011 at 8:16pm

Watch the video of Senator Levin: Levin's explanation.

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Permalink Reply by Lindsay Newland Bowker on December 15, 2011 at 9:18pm

Thank you David..truly disturbing

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Permalink Reply by Mark E. Smith on December 15, 2011 at 9:46pm

I don't know either, Victoria. Senator Levin might be lying, but why would he? The record is plain for all to see, I would think.

Anyway, think I can understand why Obama would ask that the protection for US citizens be removed. He already has the right to assassinate us without due process, just on a hunch or some informant's say-so, but you can't make any real money assassinating people. Disappearing people, however, is an industry. You need lots of troops for the snatch-and-grab operations, vehicles, buildings in which to torture people, teams of trained torturers and trainers for those torturers (this isn't easy, as many of the techniques we use are copied from Chinese techniques for extracting FALSE confessions and don't come naturally, not even to sadists), aircraft with which to fly the bodies to dump them somewhere--lots of contracts for the usual corporate contractors in an industry like that.

I liked Mr. Blue's quote of Chris Hedges quoting Camus: "Those who do not rebel in our age of totalitarian capitalism and who convince themselves that there is no alternative to collaboration are complicit in their own enslavement. They commit spiritual and moral suicide."

Uh, what might be collaboration? Loving capitalism, perhaps? Trying to keep the totalitarian capitalist system going in order to prevent instability or chaos? It couldn't be anything as harmless and ostensibly worthy as voting, could it? Isn't voting a way people exercise their power and demonstrate their freedom in a democracy? It doesn't just delegate power to elected officials to bash their heads in, detain them indefinitely, or even, dare I say, drone-bomb innocent kids? 

I mean, before enacting the NDAA didn't Congress and Obama consult you? Particularly those of you who voted for any of them? And there were a handful of people in Congress who opposed it--don't they have a voice? Couldn't they just have filibustered it or blocked it or something? 

Surely participating in this system must be a way to be politically involved and strive toward progress. Maybe if there had been a few more good people in Congress? A different President? 

It is, my dear friends, and you are my dear friends because at this moment in time you are my closest friends, the system that is at fault. Not the players, the system. The capitalist imperialist system. The one that killed millions of people to get you gas for your cars and coltan for our computers, now needs to kill us in order to protect its power and to protect the big corporations whose profits some of us seem to be questioning. It isn't nice to speak ill of our rulers. They don't take kindly to it. Who but terrorists would question capitalism or question the reasoned and sage decisions of worthy elected officials (if any of them were actually elected)?

But I'm not going to thank Obama just yet. I don't think the NDAA is sufficient to put Occupy back on the path toward democracy.

Yes, I said democracy, not direct democracy.

Representative government is not democracy. It is tyranny. It is rule by representatives, not by the people, and the representatives represent their real employers, the wealthy elite, not the fools they con into voting for them.

Direct democracy is the only real democracy. Democracy is when power is vested in the hands of the people. It is government of the people, by the people (not by unaccountable representatives---uh, will my representative vote this way or that way? I'd better turn on the TV and find out!), and for the people. And yes, that last part, the "for the people" part, as you well know, is socialist. For the people means not solely for the benefit of the 1%. It is a very subversive thought and probably one of the many reasons Lincoln was assassinated.

Could you personally do the work of your elected officials if you didn't have to spend a month and a half every year working to finance wars you don't want? Ah, but everyone else would have that much extra time also. We could.....we could.....hey! We could share the workload! Particularly since elected officials have to spend most of the time fundraising instead of legislating. Their staff, including a lot of unpaid interns and volunteers, does most of the real work for them anyway. And they'd be experienced and available if we wished to consult them directly instead of crediting the Congressfool for their work--the work of ordinary unelected citizens who are the only ones who ever do any work., 

But who'd want to? Maybe people who didn't want their heads bashed in and didn't want to be whisked off to secret prisons without due process? Maybe there are some people who would like to have a voice in decisions like that instead of just an uncounted and disregarded vote for somebody else to make those decisions? If such decisions effect you personally, not just some brown people somewhere, wouldn't you think it worth your time to have a voice in them? And wouldn't you want to have a block, just in case the majority happened to favor getting rid of due process (and the Magna Carta) in the name of getting things done and avoiding chaos?

No, just Mad Mark dreaming again.

You can all go back to registering voters. Ignore me. Who's going to arrest you for registering voters? At least if you only do it in the times, places, and manners prescribed by your local, state, and federal government. It's your right, and perhaps the only one you'll be able to defend--the right to delegate your power to people you hope won't abuse it. The right to remain silent when important decisions are made. The right to be arrested, to submit, to swear allegiance, and to conform. Wave that flaaaag---red, white, and Mister Blue.

Quick--register a few hundred thousands voters each for Elizabeth Warren and Norman Solomon. They'll be able to fix everything once they're elected. Or get up a petition for a Constitutional amendment or two or three. Surely the Supreme Court will allow you to do that outside the Article 5 Process, and anyway, even if they don't, isn't it more important to uphold the Constitution than to get amendments? If you got an amendment, then all the loonies and the big money people could do the same thing only theirs wouldn't be in our interests.

System? System? Mic check! Mic check!

My name is Mark. I'd like to get a temperature check on this proposal:

In the spirit of direct democracy, Occupy will not support or collaborate with capitalist imperialism and representative government.

In the spirit of direct democracy, Occupy will not encourage any individual to delegate their power to representatives.

In the spirit of direct democracy, Occupy will not register voters or petition government.

In the spirit of direct democracy, we will learn to create a society where we can live simple, healthy, sustainable lifestyles with no need to kill other people to support needless extravagances.

In the spirit of direct democracy we will learn to judge others by their inherent worth, not by their appearance, particularly if their appearance might be the result of beatings, torture, having been forced to commit crimes against humanity, lack of food, clothing, shelter, healthcare and housing, or other common forms of suffering in capitalist societies.

In the spirit of direct democracy we will learn and exercise self-governance, because that's what direct democracy is, and because we are competent, capable and worthy of governing ourselves.

Can I get a show of hands?

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Permalink Reply by Victoria Collier on December 15, 2011 at 10:18pm

Now that's poetry.

Mark, here's a question for you, assuming you've read Lord of the Rings.

Do you think Frodo and Sam would have gone to Mordor if they really had a clue how bad Mordor really was?

I think they would have not found the courage.

Part of their being able to make the journey was a certain ignorance. By the time they got there it was too late to turn back.

I think . . . If people really understood the forces of darkness we are up against, they would hide under their beds and suck their thumbs or flee to a remote island if possible.

There's an interesting balance between what motivates people, and what destroys them.

I have lived outside of society, and so have you. I've lived with outlaws, in anarchist camps, out in the desert and up in the mountains. I've traveled widely on the "fringe" of society. For a while I dropped out completely. This was all due to knowing exactly what kind of system we were living in, and being unable to support it in my daily life, in my work. I've been self employed most of the time, and for a long time I didn't file taxes, but then I got sick and needed surgery and in order to qualify for some assistance I had to file and pay all my back taxes -- which was still less money than the surgery! Anyway, I digress. Point being, we both share the same fundamental disgust with the system. I am motivated from the same place you are, for all the same reasons. And I've spent most of my life in relative despair because I knew we were headed into darker and darker times.

What I am interested in right now is determining what can be done to organize people to act. I think much of your message is relevant and important but we just have to be careful about leading people to despair.

Concentrating on the positive potential is important for balancing out the message of doom.

Also, you have a really strong streak of guilt and finger-pointing in your message, and all I can say is that it doesn't help.

Maybe in part you should say "we" more than "you" -- we're all culpable, we're all part of the system. The appeal should be to all of us.

Anyway, I've been reading about the giant methane fart from the melting arctic that's going to take us all out anyway, so what the hell. We do the best we can with the time we have.

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Permalink Reply by David Eggleton on December 16, 2011 at 12:13am

"What I am interested in right now is determining what can be done to organize people to act.....  Concentrating on the positive potential is important for balancing out the message of doom."

For years I wondered why people in general don't want to be organized for action, given the history of and need for it.  About five years ago a book introduced me to a plausible answer, which further investigation has buttressed.  I posted a blog about it and will shortly post another.

This (version of the) story began about 400 years ago and turned toward where we are about 90 years ago.  More to come.

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Permalink Reply by Mark E. Smith on December 16, 2011 at 12:27am

Good stuff, David. Thanks for turning me on to Covey--sounds well worth reading.

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Permalink Reply by Mark E. Smith on December 16, 2011 at 12:22am

I vaguely remember reading at least part of Lord of the Rings, Victoria, but I do get your point. Yes, I also read about the methane. And then there are all those aging nuclear reactors that can't be shut down before they melt down because US business law requires that they be operated as long as they can generate income so as to maximize profits to shareholders, whereas maintaining them properly or decommissioning them would cost money.

Of course you've had an interesting life, as have I, which is why we communicate so well. Some of the other people here may not have experienced anything in their lives that would help them to relate to what I'm saying. In fact sometimes some folks seem to see only my tone and style and my arguments are apparently invisible to them. They attribute this to my tone and/or style, but I think it might be because they have no way to relate to what I'm saying, and want to know who the hell this guy is who says stuff they can't relate to. 

Anyway Obama can do a much better job of leading people to despair than I can, so I think I'll just step back and let him do his job. Anybody who survives will have acquired everything they need to relate to what I'm saying. 

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Permalink Reply by Gisele Theriault on December 16, 2011 at 12:23am

A little sarcastic but overall a good post. You may regret it though. I'm not sure I can resist referring to you as "Mad Mark". lol

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Permalink Reply by David Eggleton on December 16, 2011 at 12:38am

Here's a hand moving upward.

When we occupy bioregional production and exchange, we will be so much more "capable and worthy of governing ourselves."

Then both my hands will be way up.

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