Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gisele Theriault on December 17, 2011 at 10:10pm

I agree. The States has about a 60% voter turnout or less. If the 40% of people who are currently not  voting had a demonstration on voting day that would be different. I don't see just not showing up as political action. The only message in not showing up is apathy. If not voting is a protest then that has to be illustrated in an active manner.

The message of "just don't vote and someday everyone will not vote and that will mean enough people are enlightened to create a new system or way of life" just doesn't resonate with me. It seems defeatist. It's as though all you can do is wait around until other people do something. You could wait around for a life-time.

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Permalink Reply by Mark E. Smith on December 17, 2011 at 10:52pm

I think you're saying that not voting is not being active, Gisele, or that it is doing nothing.

My message is that if enough people realize that what we've been doing is going in the wrong direction, and stop going in the wrong direction, just stop, then and only then would it be possible for us to go in a new direction. As long as we continue in the wrong direction, we may be doing something, but what we're doing is going in the wrong direction.

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Permalink Reply by Mark E. Smith on December 17, 2011 at 4:28pm

Yes, from what I can gather, Mr. Blue, there are still some Occupy cities that have remained true to the original Occupy spirit of direct democracy and being nonpolitical. But because the 1% have billions of dollars to spend getting out the vote, and thousands of paid staffers and unpaid volunteers to help them, and because the various political parties also have thousands of paid staffers and unpaid volunteers to help them get out the vote, and because Canvass for a Cause is so well organized and so effective at registering voters under the pretext of supporting some progressive cause or another, and because there really are a few good candidates and some apparently-promising petitions around, some Occupy cities have been overwhelmed and co-opted. 

Cities like San Francisco, Oakland, and New York, which are traditionally liberal and have more diversity among their Occupiers, are more likely to be able to hold out. Also, because they have more people Occupying, they're not as easily overwhelmed by hordes of election activists--it's much harder to reach the 90% threshhold in those cities to override the blocks of people who hold to the original Occupy principles.

Smaller, more conservative cities like San Diego, where there are a lot of white middle class progressives and liberals who haven't been radicalized, are easier targets, and I'm sure that was as obvious to political organizers as it is to me.

Wisconsin in particular, is an easy target as they still believe that numbers along can enable them to have a voice in traditional electoral politics. Most of them didn't even recognize the old "Ballot Box 13" trick in an election not too long ago when the popular candidate seemed to have won, and then election officials miraculously "discovered" enough uncounted ballots to reverse the results. Those who did were unsuccessful in remedying the situation, as usual, but they've got a long row to hoe before they begin to understand that the problem is the system, not the players., Governor Walker is their "Mubarak" and they'll be shocked, shocked I tell you, when they finally force him to step down, only to find that the system that put him in office is still in place. 

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Permalink Reply by Victoria Collier on December 17, 2011 at 4:28pm

Can anyone figure if there's an easy way to archive this thread and export it to some other format where we can save it? Lindsay? You're the techie here . . .

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Permalink Reply by Lindsay Newland Bowker on December 17, 2011 at 4:49pm

I'm no techie..pretty good at math, comples systems..that's it.  David Eggleton is ou resident genius on the technicals and of Occupy Cafe.

 

This is the link you can post elsewhere to invite readers and new commenters here to this conversation

:http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/when-the-governed-don-t-cons...

You'd have to ask Stewards how long they plan to keep this site up and whether they will archive somehow what has been gathered here at Occupy Cafe  I think its is an important historucal record.  I hope there are plans to preserve it and keep it available somehow for access should Occupy Cafe close its doors.

 

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Permalink Reply by Mark E. Smith on December 17, 2011 at 5:02pm

The software shortened the link. Here's the full link:

http://www.occupycafe.org/forum/topics/when-the-governed-don-t-consent

The only way I know of to copy an entire topic is to do it page by page, selecting and copying the text portion of each page and then pasting it somewhere else, which could be a word processor or word pad, a forum, or even into email. 

An entire topic can be saved as a "web page," somehow, as I recall, but it includes everything, even the sidebars and headings of each page, and cannot be viewed as a text document.

Maybe David or someone else has a better solution.

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Permalink Reply by Victoria Collier on December 17, 2011 at 4:35pm

This is not dissimilar to the issue of meat eating. When vegans want to convince people not to eat animal products, they know there are very few ways they can do this -- they have to start by getting people to even be open to the conversation.

Then they have to not attack the person and call them an animal killer.

Then they have to ask the person questions the hopefully will lead them to their own conclusions that meat eating has its problems.

Then they have to have an alternative to meat eating that is also acceptable and inviting to the meat eater.

And they may have to concede small victories over time, like people eating less meat and starting to experiment with cooking veggies and trying new recipes.

Eventually perhaps overall people will feel healthier and eat less meat, or no meat -- or only free-range organic meat. Some people might need to eat meat for their health. Others decide they don't have a moral problem killing animals, they just don't like CAFO slaughter houses, so they only buy from small farmers.

But some people will threaten to shoot you just for suggesting the idea.

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Permalink Reply by Lindsay Newland Bowker on December 17, 2011 at 4:57pm

great analogy Victoria..invite them over to watch FOOD..that will pretty much end meat consumption..I rarely buy even organic or free range meat now..

 

Don't think there is an equivalent currently available or as persuasive on the merits of not voting ..for hwich I am very grateful.

Wish there were one though on the elctoral process vulnerabilities you have mastered..that is critically important to get word out on.  I think most americans don't really grasp the florida recount or the significance of the supreme court decision.  And from you I am learning I don't undertsand how flawed our process of accurately counting votes is. 

 

Again, I wish you would bring this to TED where we have I think over 1/2 milion members.  Thousands and thousands "read" Ted conversations even when they don't  particpate.  I get mail all the time on converstaions that have been closed for moinths.

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Permalink Reply by Mark E. Smith on December 17, 2011 at 5:10pm

I just googled and found the link:

http://www.ted.com/conversations

Maybe I'll think about starting a discussion there. But since the discussions I start tend to draw more attention and comments than other discussions, I'm already worrying about what could happen on a site with that many members. Probably not a problem since there are so many other competing ideas. But thanks for the suggestion (even though it was made to Victoria rather than to me), Lindsay.

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Permalink Reply by Lindsay Newland Bowker on December 17, 2011 at 6:14pm

mark, great..t at TED all comments must be on topic  and all discourse must be civil..I think you have a lot of information and resources  to share and that you would be welcome sharing that in the context of  discussions.  I would love to hear what you have to say about the Ecuador Constiution and its relevance to emerging deomcracies ( like Egypt which will be writing a constitution soon) or to us in the U.S.  is it a relevant model for us.?  I would be interested in your thoughts there on the Icelandic crowd sourced constitution.

You obviously have command of a great deal of well reaswrched thorugtfully anlaysed information.

It is not a blog..you can't just open a page and blog about boycitting voting..they wouldn't allow what Ben has allowed you here.  but I think it is a worthy question for TED.  "Is A Voting Boycott a way to electoral reform?  or "Do you think your vote matters?"

There are no anarchists at TED ( if there were hey have been booted)  just kidding...but if you took Gisele and Victoria with you  you  would have a ready built vehicle  for discussing boycotting voting ( although they may feel exhausted by that by now..I'm not sure they'll sign up for more).

I didn't mention it to you because your style is not at all compatible with TED.  But if you can bring that newly cultivated conversational collaborating self over, I think you would be most welcome.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Victoria Collier on December 17, 2011 at 5:12pm

I didn't mean to ignore the TED thing. What exactly are you talking about -- a web forum? I thought TED was just speakers. Is there somewhere to have an online presence as a presenter with TED?

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Permalink Reply by Lindsay Newland Bowker on December 17, 2011 at 6:00pm

Yes, on the main page at www.ted.com choose "conversations"  you can search open and closed conversations by key word , eg "direct democracy" "electoral fraud" and read without being a member.

To be a member you needn't provide any identitifying info if you don't wish to but if you are a member of an active organization you can post your affiliation as a link in your profile.  You do have to agree to our very strictly enforced rules of civil discourse. As a member, you can frame your own conversation and invite or wait for others to join..You can decide whether to have it open from 1 day to 1 month.  It is not a blog..it is s aconverstaion so really you can't post unless others join except for a few initial comments to get the conversation going.

 

It's a mixed bag..like the real world..but a huge potential community ..the prupose of TED Conversations is to have significant global conversations..we have translators and we have learned to speak with one aother through translators in many languages.

 

I personally would enjoy your thoughts on my just posted today topic of modernising  consitutions.,  Happy to help you via email to frame a good question for your intrroductory job as moderator/host at TED.

By way of building awareness of who you are and how you speak always a good idea to comment on what others are commenting on..it's a good way to break the ice and then when people see your picture up in the thumbnails, they;ll come and join conversations where you are.   check it out see what you think. 

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